The Truth About the Success Spotlight with Tim Schurrer

The Truth About the Success Spotlight with Tim Schurrer
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Tim Schurrer: [00:00:00] copy of my book, I'm actually fine. I really am. I believe in the message. I want more people to be able to apply the principles in their life just ' cause I think they'll be more healthy. I need this message every day. And so, sometimes success is not about the size of the platform. success is

one life at a time and I really do try to remind myself of that because it can be easy to get head faked. But like the impact that it had on me was, I hope that tens of thousands of people will read this book. I really do.

Allan Dib: Hey Tim, how are you?

Tim Schurrer: Doing good. How are you doing?

Allan Dib: I'm doing real good. Thanks so much for joining me.

Tim Schurrer: absolutely.

Allan Dib: I really enjoyed your book. So, um, I've been,thinking about my life and thinking about how I redefine success, how I think about success and all the usual things. and, yeah, I ended up picking up your book and reading it and really enjoyed it.

and then, I didn't even realize, but, you were [00:01:00] Donald Miller's right hand man. So, I mean, I know Donald Miller, but, I, I didn't know,you,which is kind of a very appropriate theme for the book, isn't it? Like the people who are driving things forward are not always in the spotlight. Right?

Tim Schurrer: that's exactly it. That's, it's such a strange thing where you like,write this book and then all of a sudden you just realize nobody has any idea who I am. And it's such a weird thing where now you almost have to like, go out there and like talk about all the work that you've done while at the same time I was, I'm just kind of comfortable just. Hanging out back here behind the scenes.

Allan Dib: Do you feel more comfortable behind the scenes I mean, everybody likes a spotlight. Of course, we all want attention, but, where are you most comfortable?

Tim Schurrer: definitely more in the background, but I've also learned, I love being out in front of people and, I had never really had a reason to do keynotes and to be a guest on [00:02:00] podcasts and those kinds of things. but the book kind of launched me into it and I found it's been great. I feel very comfortable having conversations like this 'cause it doesn't feel,I just think the posture behind it is also what makes it work. It's like, look, I'm here to try to help whoever it is that's listening to Maybe think about some of what we're gonna talk about in a little bit of a different way. And, I'm not here to tell you what to do or to try to villainize one path or the other.

there is no bad person here, and I think that's one of the big messages I felt,was an important one come to realize.

The Spotlight: Its Impact and Misconceptions
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Tim Schurrer: And even writing this book is, spotlight's not the problem.

That's not the problem. And in fact, it's what's your intent? Because actually, if you have a really big platform, there's examples in the book of the former CEO of Ford, Alan Mulally or LeBron James or Tim Cook, [00:03:00] like these people couldn't be more in the spotlight and yet.

How they show up is actually able to be used for a lot of good. And so, to try to say that the spotlight's the problem is just not this, that's not it. it's just the problem that I have is when people try to say that's the only one thing that matters, it's that or nothing. And to that, I'm like, I don't know.

Maybe we should talk about it a little bit more.

Allan Dib: Let's, let's talk about it. So we're, I was reading the book and I'm like, I agree with what he's saying. I agree with this. And then part of me is like, oh, but, I really do like, I really do like success. I really do like being in the spotlight. And I think towards the end of the book, you say that it's not something that you can eliminate. It's just a tension that you've gotta manage, right?

Tim Schurrer: Yeah, everything that you just said around it is learning to live in the tension. This is not going away. There's not a day that you're gonna wake up and say, I don't struggle with that anymore.

Here's an example. [00:04:00] So I have a really hard time posting on social media, and the reason why I is because when I run it through my own filters, one of the questions that I ask myself is, am I just trying to do this to get people to think a particular way about me?

Tim Schurrer: Or am I actually trying to share it as a means of being helpful?

Allan Dib: Yeah.

Tim Schurrer: And more often than not, if I'm honest with myself, the reason why I'm sharing it is I want people to think a certain thing about me.

And what I also realize is when I am posting, I'm checking it so often just to see what people's reaction is to it. So therefore I end up not only posting from what is, sometimes an unhealthy place, but I'm also now spending a whole bunch of time wondering how other [00:05:00] people are thinking about me and perceiving the thing that I put out there. And, when I first got Instagram, I don't know, whenever it started, it was this like 2010 something, 20 10, 20 11.

I look back at my early feed and I just love taking pictures and applying the filters. And I enjoyed that. And it's just kinda like spiraled into this whole other thing. And so, I don't think that there is gonna be a day that I wake up and say, I do not care what anyone thinks. I think that it is going to be an ongoing internal wrestling of checking my intent behind why it is that I do what I do.

And, I don't think I'm the only one either. I think that's the reality of just what life is. I.

Allan Dib: the other thing, it's like there's a ratchet, right? So like, today I live a life that, maybe 20 years ago I would not have dreamed in my wildest imagination yet I'm still got [00:06:00] new goals, bigger goals, the next thing,, the next revenue level, the next, goal and all of this sort of stuff.

So, there was a time when I thought, wow, imagine making $10,000 a month. That was just like an bel like, I will be rich then. And then I didn't realize, and then I'd passed it by a long shot and all of that sort of stuff.

And then you get to the next goal. And it's like a never ending cycle. And you see this in. Hugely wealthy people. I mean the, like I was listening to a podcast with Grant Cardone yesterday and , he's a billionaire now is talking about getting to 10 billion. , and those are inspirational as well.

Like you are also thinking, Hey, that's really cool to go big and all of that sort of stuff. But at the same time, I know from my own experience it's generally not a recipe for long-term success,or happiness I found.

Tim Schurrer: Yeah, I think you have to ask yourself like, when is enough? what is success, actually? And I think goals are great. I love goals, but what I've [00:07:00] actually found is it's less about the goal and more about what that does in terms of creating focus in my life and focus in the way that I spend my time.

And, you're measuring your progress towards these goals. You come up against challenges and you have to solve those problems. You have to partner with people to try to, achieve that goal. That's it for me, it's less about the actual goal oftentimes, and it's more about just the process of getting there.

Allan Dib: So, how do you set goals? Do you have a end of a year, review and like, this went well, this didn't, this is what I want more of? There was a chapter in your book where you're talking about like just focusing on the process, not necessarily on the goal.

and I mean I talk about that in some of my, books and, some of my material about really create a, it's the process that's gonna give you the compounding gains. It's not necessarily the [00:08:00] big goal, which is kind of inspirational in the moment, but. Gone later on. But I'd love to understand like, how do you set goals?

how do you feel about that and how do you think about that?

Tim Schurrer: It's a little bit of a mix. I think you do have to set some kind of goal just to know where you're even headed. but what I've also found about goal setting is. If you try today to set a goal for the end of the year, unless you're using a massive amount of data, chances are where you end up a year from now is gonna be very different from where you are today.

'cause trying to anticipate 12 months into the future is just taking a giant guess. It's so hard, even to try to set, a trajectory for where you might be three or six months from now is wildly challenging. And so I like to set a goal just as a, here's where we want to go, because I also think that the size of your [00:09:00] goal can inform the strategy that you end up moving on.

So if we don't even need to talk about anything specific, but if your goal is a thousand versus a hundred thousand. Well, as you would imagine, like those are two very different strategies.

And so I like setting goals just to know like, what ballpark are we in right now?

Allan Dib:

Tim Schurrer: but after you've kind of determined that and you have a sense of, okay, like this is where we want to go.

This is our intent. you do have to just focus on each and every day as a way to, measure if you're doing a good job. the process is something that I am so much more interested in, so I think that's a luxury of being able to have more of a long-term view on success. Like this podcast for example, you either could say, okay, well my goal is X thousand of downloads and if I don't get that, then.

I either [00:10:00] failed, I missed my goal. You know what you get bummed out about it. But if I'm you, I just feel like, Hey, I'm gonna walk into the conversations prepared.

The StoryBrand Journey: From Inception to Success
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Tim Schurrer: I'm going to try to facilitate what I think is a helpful conversation, not only for what you wanna learn from it, but also what you wanna share with other people.

you also can feel content in, doing everything that you know to do on the marketing side, whether that's, your social media plan, email plan, however other ways that you're, distributing it. But if you've determined what you believe is a good strategy, not only on the content side, but on the marketing side, in a lot of ways, the numbers just are what they are

so. It's fine to set a, oh, I want to have, 10,000 downloads on this episode or whatever. But,I just feel like to track your success a little bit more along the lines of did I create a [00:11:00] plan that I feel good about and did I go out and do it? I'm more looking at my work in that way than I am in, obsessing over these certain numbers.

What I've found is the numbers kind of take care of themselves. I think also why I've been able to operate more in the process is 'cause when I've followed the process, it just feels like it continues to get us where we need to go.

Allan Dib: I totally agree with that, but I, constantly have this tension with, okay, so we, yes, I. Totally agree that it's the process. Yes, totally agree that, we wanna set a direction and move towards it, but. I'll give you an example that I typically run into with my team.

You, having been the number two to StoryBrand, which was a very fast growing business, started from, I think you said in the book you started when they were 250,000 in revenue, right up to 16 million.

And I know,they're, well, well above that now, when you were planning. you must have had conversations with Don, with some of the other team there. Hey, we want to get to this [00:12:00] revenue level, or we wanna get to this, kind of goal or whatever. like how did you guys set company goals and then, make sure that team didn't burn out as well?

Because that's a conversation I have with my team as well. I'm like, guys, this is running too slow. Let's do this in three months instead of nine months. or whatever. And a lot of times the pushback is, Hey look, this is gonna burn out the team. this is, unrealistic or whatever. And so there is that tension.

So like how did you guys solve that? and was that a big issue, at as growing that business, which was a pretty rapidly growing business as well?

Tim Schurrer: Yeah. If we had a tendency, it was to, take on a lot of work with a small team. I don't think in my 10 years I was the first employee, so it was me. And then we built that. I was there every step of the way, and in all of that time, we never had a feeling of overstaffed.

We like prided [00:13:00] ourselves in kind of the lean and mean approach, which is how you keep your profit margin really high.

But with that, you also have to realize that the challenge is you may get to that point where people are spending way too many plates and, I kind of thrive in that environment. I kind of like it. I like taking on a lot and just figuring out a way to make it happen. I remember early on we had a conference and we had like 2000 people at this conference and.

We didn't have a customer service person on our team, we didn't have any of that. Like, when a registration would come through for the conference, I would email every single person and say, saw that you registered, and then I would be doing all the back and forth. So here I am. we had this tiny team, there's like three of us on staff.

We were hosting a conference of 2000 people.

And then my [00:14:00] friends who actually work in events, they're like, you pulled this off with what? And they're like, I don't know, there's like two or three of us. Is that good? You know, I don't know. So I think that we just gotta operated by doing a ton with few people.

But yeah, you do burn some people out, and it's not for everybody. But I also think that there is a, kind of person who loves it. And you have to have people who are in a stage of life that they are wanting to do the same kind of thing as you are in that. But that said, I, I feel like how I'm communicating all this is that we just burned everybody out all the time.

And that's not true. I do think that I also, especially the way that I show up as a leader is a very empathetic, I am understanding where everybody's at and I would actually rather take on the work, but feel bad about, putting that same kind of pressure on you. So I think we had a nice balance between, trying to be realistic with deadlines, pushing back [00:15:00] on, Don was just a hundred miles an hour all the time, we're always, it should have launched yesterday, and so

it's just him as the visionary.

but I'm like, I hear you Don, and you need to know all of what is going on behind the scenes that we are saving you from not even having to think about or worry about. and I don't even want to try to explain it to you, but just trust me when I say it can't just be done right now, So there's also that dance of trying to, figure out how much information you,give to the CEO as a way of letting him know why or why we can't hit particular ambitious goals and deadlines. So I think that the job of a leader is to be ambitious and, you know, Steve Jobs used to do it all the time.

I mean, I spent a little bit of time at Apple and while I, never worked, in his office or anything, or got to experience this firsthand, he's known for somebody who just sets these wildly ambitious, goals and deadlines and people find a way to just [00:16:00] figure it out. And so I think that it's very normal for a visionary leader like that who's not in the weeds to just be like, let's do it.

Why can't we get it done? And I think that invigorates people and allows them to see that. maybe they're thinking or dreaming a little bit too small. And, this is kind of the environment. we've dealt with it a little bit, at least in, in my experience.

Allan Dib: to me, aproject kind of loses energy and momentum if it goes too slow. if you've been working on, something that really should have been done three months ago, six months ago, or whatever, it just, like, it becomes a drag, like it doesn't loses momentum, loses energy, all of those sorts of things.

so to me that's always a tension I'm having with some of my leadership team. It's like, yes, this should have been launched yesterday. Exactly as you were saying, yes, this should be faster

Tim Schurrer: So you're normal is basically what, like this is, and and I bet if you talk to a dozen people that are in similar positions to yours and mine, like I bet they're experiencing the exact same thing. [00:17:00] I think there is always gonna be that tension,

Allan Dib: you,

so I'd love to understand like, Like, let's say StoryBrand, when you were at a million or 2 million in revenue, did you set goals that were like, kind of quote mark realistic goals? Like, okay, we're gonna go from two to two and a half, or did you like say, all right, we're going from two to 10, kind of thing.

were they kind of big, ambitious, goals or were they like, Hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna keep increasing by 20% a year, or 30%, or whatever.

That sort of thing, like how did you think about goal setting it from that perspective?

Tim Schurrer: Early on we just started doubling revenue every year, like multiple years in a row.

Allan Dib: was that due to demand or was that due to just really good marketing or like, what did you put that down to?

Tim Schurrer: So when I first started with Don, it was just he and I and, the $250,000 in revenue was really from him. he [00:18:00] wrote books, he did keynotes, and then we had these conferences which were making some money, but not like a crazy amount of money. So some of it was transitioning from, at the time he was writing Christian memoirs to business books.

So I started in 2012 and I believe StoryBrand was, we started doing our first workshops in 2015. And so 2015 to 2016, part of the growth was us transitioning from this, guy writing books, doing keynotes too. Creating products and him going out and doing these workshops and us then hosting public workshops as well.

So a lot of it was product creation and rolling out, some of that for the very first time and there was a appetite [00:19:00] for it. And then we ended up creating an online course and started teaching people not only in a, now a workshop, but also online on demand. And that was pretty novel at the time. There weren't a whole lot of people, I feel like, that were really doing that kind of stuff back when we started.

And now everyone's got an online course.

Allan Dib: I'm assuming the book story brand, put a lit a fire on the growth of the business. I mean, that, that book did very well. And,was the business prior to the book

Tim Schurrer: The book was last, so the first was workshops. I want to say we were selling 'em for $2,000 a person for like a two day marketing workshop,

and that was 10 to 15 people around a boardroom. And then they grew to 25, then they grew to 40. And then, eventually we were 150 to 200 people at these workshops.

And so we tried doing them quarterly, we tried doing them more [00:20:00] like monthly to where we'd have around 10 a year. So we were very consistent with the workshops and really started spreading and validating the idea and learning the best way to communicate all of that through the live workshop setting.

While Don was also doing private. Workshops with one company, and then we've turned it into an online course.

And that was, I believe the workshops went from like $2,000 for a two day event to $3,000. And then when we started selling the online course, and you can get it on demand for $1,500, And then the book came out in 2017. So it was a couple of years of

Allan Dib: So the book was fairly late to the piece. It wa it wasn't necessarily the thing, the driver was it?

Tim Schurrer: No, the book now has been a driver for certification.

So now people can become StoryBrand certified. [00:21:00] So if you're a marketing agency and you want to be able to, use that intellectual property in your marketing and consulting. People can, become certified. And so I feel like the book really not only drove demand for people just applying those StoryBrand principles to their own marketing at their business, but also then it's driven the demand for, needing people to help do all of that work.

And so now all of a sudden, the certified community has been one of the big growth opportunities. And those people then can,be the ones doing the website or the lead generator or the, whatever comes as a result.

Allan Dib: we've had quite a lot of StoryBrand people also go through our certification. they're pretty, complimentary as

well, the one page marketing plan certification. and so prior to the book,

how did you get bums on seats? How did you fill a hundred rooms?

15 people, then 20, then 30, then 50, then a hundred, I mean at two or $3,000 a

Tim Schurrer: so [00:22:00] hard, right?

It's crazy.

Allan Dib: I mean,

Tim Schurrer: it's so fun to talk about now, but it was not easy.

Allan Dib: I can imagine. I can

Tim Schurrer: Um,I think one of the advantages was Don had a pretty big following early on just because of him doing, his book writing. So he had started to build an email list We did not hire a director of marketing until like three years into the StoryBrand portion of the company because we, email marketing was our director of marketing. Everything we did was through email.

Allan Dib: agree. A email. just a workhorse. and so did you find that the audience from, his, kind of Christian books translated to StoryBrand? or was that completely two separate audiences?

Tim Schurrer: A little bit of both. there's a lot of people who were there for the Christian memoirs that weren't there for the business books, they're like, where'd [00:23:00] the old Don go? And he's like, I'm writing business books now. so it kind of lost some of those people, which is fine. but there were some of those same people who were buying bluelike jazz that, worked in marketing.

actually, the first ever, time that dDon presented the StoryBrand framework to somebody. We were in Cincinnati and somebody from p and g wanted us to go present this content at a kinda like an internal meeting. And like the chief marketing officer is there, and I can't even remember who else was in the room, but there was like 40 people there.

And these are some of the top people in that business on the marketing side. so the person who ended up inviting us in, it's so funny because here they are in marketing, and it's almost like before we leave, they like pull us aside and it's like, I really like blue like jazz, thanks for coming.

so it's like this closet, Don Miller, like Christian author fan who now works in marketing and that [00:24:00] got us in the door in a lot of different places. So it's like, yes, it's both. We did lose some people, but also it gave us, a lot of built in trust and credibility in a, group of people who were faith-based, that also were in business.

The Power of Audience: Building and Monetizing a Following
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Allan Dib: Yeah, I feel like,now it seems obvious, but,it's pretty forward thinking of Don to having have built an audience at that time. Like now, building an audience is really the superpower. You see a lot of people building a big audience and then monetizing it or launching a product or a service or something like that.

it really is a superpower to have an audience and then find what they need rather than completely backwards, where a lot of people start with a product or a service or whatever, and then try and find an audience,to sell to.

Tim Schurrer: What's interesting though about that is Don, for the number of books that he had sold. When we started working together, the number of email addresses that we had was dismal.

Allan Dib: Really?

Tim Schurrer: [00:25:00] And because that wasn't what being an author was in 2010 or whatever, like there just weren't a bunch of people who were selling a bunch of books and then also really trying to drive email addresses.

And so we were learning from people like Michael Hyatt who was actually trying to convert blog readers into email addresses, into book buyers. Michael was doing stuff like that. And so I feel like we were learning from friends and just kind of taking some of their best practices and applying it to ours, but, that's something that was a very intentional thing to start to do, to catch up on.

But yeah, there's a very long time when the Yeah. Number of book readers to email addresses that was a big discrepancy in those two things.

Allan Dib: what were your biggest learnings? I mean, not necessarily just in StoryBrand, but I mean, you've played that role, that person behind the scenes who's really grown a business or [00:26:00] driven projects forward. what have you been your biggest learnings? Because no doubt, and I'm not saying Don is like that, but no doubt, you work with some big egos and, people who continually pushing want to get to the next level, and it's your responsibility or at least you've taken on the responsibility to be that person who really implements the vision, I mean to use attraction terminology or the integrator, right?

So there's the visionary and the integrator. What have been your biggest learnings, in those kind of roles?

Tim Schurrer: It is so important to be the integrator alongside a visionary that you wanna be around and that you enjoy working with. Because I was less interested in the project itself, I. I was just up for whatever. I was having fun just building a business and being in community with the people that we started to hire and were showing up at the office every day.

That was fun. the what I was less interested in. So even if you asked me today, Tim, do you have this intense desire for marketing? Like you grew [00:27:00] this big marketing company, you must love marketing. I'm be like, I don't really care about marketing that much. it's sure, it's interesting, but what I had so much fun doing was, growing a business.

And what's great is I felt like it was a business that was positioned to help other people be successful. So one of the big paradigm shifts in StoryBrand is your customer is the hero. You are the guide, right? Like, this is not about you, it's about your customer. And so what I had was a decade where I learned.

And oriented our entire team around, guys, this is not about us. This is actually about our customer. Let's obsess about their problems and trying to solve their problems. So I actually looked at my work in the exact same way. Don is my customer,

I'm like, Hey, what do you want to get done? What vision do you have?

I'm like, oh, that sounds so fun. I think I can help. Let me go do that. That's like I am fulfilling my purpose in life when I [00:28:00] get to leverage my weird skillset of being able to be in the high level strategy meeting, but then can dig really deep into the weeds. And I love being in the weeds to go help execute.

I have a very strange skillset in that. And so I come alive when I spend time with a visionary, helping them get something done in the world. It's very fulfilling for me, and I got to do that. Times about a million,

Allan Dib: That's so.

Tim Schurrer: the project was.

Allan Dib: That's so cool.

The Art of Decision Making in Business
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Allan Dib: I mean, no doubt in working for, for a decade in the same business and in a high growth business, how did you settle, I guess, I dunno for one or another word, disagreements around direction or growth or, particular strategy or whatever. Hey, I think we should do this.

and the visionary is, no. Look, we've gotta go in this direction.

And so you've both got a high level of conviction. Is it just like, Hey, highest rank says where we go? Or like, what was [00:29:00] your approach and how did you guys

Tim Schurrer: Yeah.You know, I've really learned so much about how to do this in the last couple of years. So I transitioned out of StoryBrand to launch into a new dream. I wrote a book, I. I thought I was gonna be writing and speaking, and that be this kind of new career for me. A bit of an unexpected one, but I was just going for it. And six months into that, I get asked to be the CEO of a nonprofit. And the guy who asked me to lead this nonprofit is a guy named David Novak. And David was the CEO of Yum Brands, which is KFC, taco Bell and Pizza Hut. So he grew that business from 4 billion to 32 billion in market cap. But what I love so much about David's approach to leadership is the way that he did it.

The number one [00:30:00] behavior that he drove in the business at Yum was recognition, valuing every person's contribution. And so David actually wrote this book. It's one of my favorite business books and just books in general, but it's called Taking People With You, the Only Way to Make Big Things Happen. So his David's whole leadership philosophy.

So here's a guy who had 1.5 million employees across the globe. Okay? So David says, if you wanna make anything big happen, you gotta take people with you. So David, I've learned so much from him on this front. And what David says is, if you take the joy of the decision away from somebody, you take the joy of the job away,

take the joy of the decision away, you take the joy of the job away.

So I don't think that it's effective to come in and throw down your CEO Trump card. [00:31:00] Like it might get you what you want. I think if you're looking at how do you really build a community, a team of people who will do anything for you, you're not gonna get there by engaging in decision making like that.

And what I'm grateful for is when we were at StoryBrand there was a, we were collaborative, but I think that with David, it's kind of a whole other level where, he'll come to me and say, Hey Tim, here's something that, uh, I just want you to be thinking about. it's your call. But, if I were to give you any coaching, it would be X.

So he lets me make decisions and he lets me be wrong sometimes. And then you learn. I just have, an approach now that I've been able to steal from somebody who's, led a business at the absolute highest level, and I think it's a good one.

Allan Dib: I like this idea [00:32:00] of let the person, like I heard this from another very successful person of a, he's the CEO of a public company and he's like, look, there are times when I'm speaking to my CEO and I know he's gonna head, he's heading in the right direction. And I don't use that kind of CEO that Trump card unless I know it's gonna kill the business, right?

So I let them be wrong. I let them make mistake because otherwise, they'll come back to me and say, Hey, see, we didn't make next quarter's numbers because we followed your direction, or what, or that, that sort of thing. So allowing your leadership team to be wrong, even when you can see they're heading in the wrong direction.

I've heard that multiple times from many high level, leaders and chairman and CEOs.

Tim Schurrer: And I do think that you bring up a really important point, which is you have to understand the stakes here. If you're the CEO of a public company, I'm sure David operates with me and me being the [00:33:00] CEO of his nonprofit, I think he interacts with me a little differently than if I was the CEO E of Taco Bell, right?

So you gotta also acknowledge where you are, but if I had to guess, I would actually say that David was probably doing a version of that his entire career. and when you're the CEO of a giant company like that, you can't make every decision. So the way that you teach decision making is sometimes by empowering people to, fail and then learn from it.

Allan Dib: you talk a lot about company culture and. building a team. And, to me, that's the most difficult part of, business. I mean, a lot of the stuff that we need to do to make business successful, the marketing, the sales, all of that. there are pretty well proven paths to success there.

The people element, to me at least feels most random. And it's probably because, I'm a geek. I'm probably more comfortable with machine than man. I love writing, I love technology. I love being alone. I'm an introvert for [00:34:00] sure. And to me, a lot of times I feel like I'm an alien and I'm trying, just trying to figure out how do these humans operate?

Like, what is it that makes them tick? And so, to me, that's the most challenging element. And I'm very envious of people like you who seem to just do it naturally. Who can lead, a team, and who can do that really at a high level. And that's part of why, I wanted to connect with you because you've clearly done that and you're doing that.

And I think there's a lot I can learn from people like yourself. what don't I know? what is it that, people like myself maybe don't understand or need to learn at a high level or whatever. Like, like I, I just wanna get some of your wisdom and magic.

Tim Schurrer: Yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that because when you were saying like, this is the hardest part the whole time I'm thinking, I actually think that's the easy part. The hard part is everything else that you're talking about. So that is. A perfect way to tee up this idea [00:35:00] of you have to staff your liabilities.

If you know that about yourself, acknowledge that is not where you are the strongest. But also, if you acknowledge that is an important part of building a healthy team and culture, then go find somebody who can do that.

Allan Dib: Yeah.

Tim Schurrer: And,the reality is we all have different wirings, and it's for a reason.

a basketball team needs a point guard who can dribble really well, and they need a big man. and you're not trying to have the point guard, guard, the seven footer. It's just, we have different strengths. We have different DNA and, I think Patrick Lencioni has done some incredible work on this front with his latest book, the Working Genius.

And it's a $25 assessment, but he's broken down kind of these six, what he would call it, your genius. And that you take this assessment and it calls out your two [00:36:00] strongest, and you're only a genius at two of the six. But what's been really interesting to see is how everyone interacts, within a team, given the fact that is their genius.

And so, I just love this book by the way. I could talk a whole, a lot of time about just this concept, but they break down the different personality types from the highest level all the way down, more towards like ground level. So, it's wonder, invention, discernment, galvanize, enablement and tenacity.

So it's like there's people who have the genius of wonder, who sit around and wonder like, what if we. You know, whatever. But then you have the other person who's all the way on the other end of the spectrum, which is tenacity, and that's gonna be your, administrative assistant that's just like, cool, why don't you think about that and decide, and then I'm gonna go get to work and execute the thing that you're dreaming about.

And so I think that the reality is [00:37:00] we all just need to understand. We have different strengths and it's most important for us to staff our liabilities. And to build a winning team, you have to staff all the different areas of a business that really needs to be staffed.

Allan Dib: a hundred percent agree with that. I often say, staff your weaknesses and double down on your strength because you can make your weaknesses slightly less weak by putting a lot of time and effort, and sometimes you should, but a lot of times you'll get far more return for your time, money, effort by just doubling down on your strengths and staffing your weaknesses.

That's something that,I firmly believe in.

The Journey of Writing and Publishing a Book
---

Allan Dib: switching gears a little bit, so. I always have a amount of respect for anyone who's gone through the unreasonable pain and time and effort of publishing a book.

Right. I mean, first of all, congratulations. that's huge. I mean, how many people say they want to write a book one day, it's on their bucket list, and of course never do. So huge accomplishment and huge [00:38:00] props to you. and also, you've been around, a lot of, books and authors and,Donald Miller, I mean, I dunno how he does it.

He's probably, what is, he got 10 books now or something like that? I just can't fathom how someone pumps out 10 books. Right. I'm exhausted at two. So, I'm exhausted at one.

So you've seen book launches, you've seen, all of that. Like what makes the book successful? Like, there are some books that just pop off and there are some books that just, you know, and I mean, I know we're using a measure of successes in book sales and reviews and all of that, but there are books that kind of just get traction and books that don't.

, what has been your observation and is it intrinsic in the book? Is it the writing? Is it the, superficial stuff like the title to cover, like what makes a book really work versus not?

Tim Schurrer: going to the first part where you're talking about how challenging it's to write a book, the only difference between somebody who's written a book and somebody who hasn't is. The [00:39:00] person who wrote the book just didn't stop. They didn't quit because it just takes a crazy amount of perseverance and persistence to just, Don always used to say, put a little something on the plot every day.

And, I had a mantra that I would say almost every day. It's like, I will add a small amount to my book each and every day, like I will. and a small amount could be a sentence, it could be me listening to a podcast interview for research. It was just add something to my book each and every day.

so the thing that I believe about what makes a book sell is I think that everyone, this it's true for any content. We're just so consumed with content. I don't think people are interested in passionless. I just finished because I needed to check a box. Like I, I think people can feel it when you [00:40:00] believe in what it is that you're talking about.

When you believe that if somebody were to read this book, that their life would be impacted by it. and I actually got some help when I was writing my book. I didn't write every single word, which is actually kind of perfect for the theme of the book. Like there were two people behind the scenes helping me write the book that will never get the credit that they deserve for the contribution that they made, to the book.

Even though I tried so hard to give them that credit. but I really wanted, even as I was trying to help find people to join the project, I don't want somebody who is just going to do it. I wanted you to believe in the message and. Wanna put that little extra something into it. And so, I just think people can feel it.

I think they can feel it. Why do some sell a crazy amount? Like, I don't know if I knew that answer. If, you know that answer, publishers would be calling us and we'd be making a [00:41:00] lot of money for this, secret, little bit of magic. But,I do think it, it is an alignment of the felt need that is happening in society, or in a particular niche or industry.

Allan Dib: and for it to be done in a really well to executed product. that's exactly what it,is. It's a product. Like a lot of authors feel like, Hey, I've done my magic and you know it, the rest is up to the world. whereas it is a product, and I do think about a book in, well, at least the books I write as in, Hey, this is a 10 year project. This is not just the writing and the launch.

This is okay. the marketing, the concept, the all of the things that are going to come after it. And, my wife is a big fiction reader and some of these fiction authors, they're pumping out five, six books a year. Like, it's just like, incredible.

And I, I don't know if it's just a divide between fiction and nonfiction, but even like, for example, like my friend Mike Michalowicz, he's doing a new book every year and,Hey, he [00:42:00] pumps out books faster than I can read them. And, and I think that's incredible. I asked him about that.

He said, well, actually, I spent five years on the book. I've just got, I'm working on five at a time kind of thing. So that was an interesting

Tim Schurrer: I love that guy.

Allan Dib: Yeah, he's cool. He's cool. Mike is a legend. but even him, he's got like a couple of breakout hits, like profit first, and I've been thinking deeply about this because conclusion I came to is that it's the big idea or the concept behind the book. Like, you think about like books that have done amazingly well, like, hey, there can be a four hour work week, or there's a Blue ocean strategy, or how you can have a marketing plan on one page or,basically a big idea behind the Purple Cow.

So,

Tim Schurrer: can join the Secret Society of

Allan Dib: the secret Society of success. Exactly. Exactly. So, like a big idea behind the book, to me, and then communicating that big idea in the title and subtitle there is a big mystery element to why some books do so [00:43:00] well and why some don't.

But in the time I've spent kind of researching it. I'm like, it's not the writing because I know there are some books that have, awful writing. They're just a mess in terms of writing, but they've done extremely well because the concept is strong, the big idea behind it is strong. and then there are books that are beautifully written that haven't done very well, just because the concept is not super, super strong.

So, I dunno, that's the conclusion I've come to. I dunno. it could be right, it could be wrong, but that's where I've gotten to,

Tim Schurrer: You know, our brains really do like linear, and I saw the success of StoryBrand. It's a seven part framework. It's a formula. It makes your marketing easy, very clearly defined problem. I mean, there's a lot going for it.the Secret Society of Success was a more challenging book to write because as hard as I tried, I didn't feel like it was [00:44:00] true to the content to give you a formula.

because one of the big problems that I talk about early in the book is the spotlight mindset. this unhealthy desire for attention and recognition. It's that thing that, has this wanting to be in the spotlight or to get the credit. And, no matter how hard I tried, I don't think that I can give you three steps that will completely solve your problem.

Allan Dib: you you do put together a framework though. you talk about, getting lost in the work. You talk

Tim Schurrer: Yeah. I mean, there's like these tactics, but I'm more handing you tools when you kind of trip. up on some of these different things, but you know what sells in marketing is you were overweight and now you were not. Just do this thing. So it's like this is maybe a little bit messier of a concept.

It takes a minute to get it, to really, it almost, I feel like you can understand what I'm trying to say in the book around, this need to redefine success, [00:45:00] but I think that you really appreciate it when you really get into it and you read a couple chapters and you're like, I feel that, like my soul feels that.

And so I also think that's a part of it as well, is some books are gonna just. It's like pop music, right? Like you're just gonna appreciate it. But there's some that's a little bit more of an acquired taste. And it might be a smaller but niche audience.

Redefining Success and Impact
---

Tim Schurrer: But here's the thing that I also think is really important as you're, trying to measure success on a product, a book, or a whatever.

So there is one scoreboard that I could look at if I were to try to determine the quote success of the book. And that is book sales. Okay? But I also think that it is, important to be thinking about some of these other ways to measure success. And, I got a text message one day from a friend of a friend.

He had been fired [00:46:00] as a head basketball coach at a division one basketball school. And ended up going to be an assistant coach at, another university. And somebody sent him my book and here he was just completely lost, feeling very deflated and like a failure after this very public firing that he had as this, head basketball coach.

So after going through like a year of kind of just starting to figure out his life a little bit, there's a lot of other things going on, along that journey, in addition to him reading the book. But, he gets a job at a new school and on the whiteboard in his office, the last day that he's in his office, he writes down quotes.

From my book, all the different things that had helped him on his journey kinda recover from this negative head space of being fired because the [00:47:00] person who is coming in to take his job had also been fired as a former head men's basketball coach.

Allan Dib: Oh wow.

Tim Schurrer: So, I'm not getting chills even thinking about it. I hope I'm explaining this clearly.

But like the impact that it had on me was, I hope that tens of thousands of people will read this book. I really do.

If it was able to help Michael through whatever situation that he's in, and now me and Michael text, like quite often just because I'm very, it's like a new friend.

There's this bond that he and I share and, if I don't sell another copy of my book, I'm actually fine. I really am. I believe in the message. I want more people to be able to apply the principles in their life just 'cause I think they'll be more healthy. I need this message every day. And so, sometimes success is not about the size of the platform.

success is one life at a [00:48:00] time and I really do try to remind myself of that because it can be easy to get head faked.

Allan Dib: I love that. and, I'm sure you will sell a lot more copies. it's a book that I really enjoyed. I got a lot out of it. I got a lot of similar vibes, from reading your book as I did. Clayton Christians, how will you Measure your Life? I mean, there, there was

Tim Schurrer: I haven't read that.

Allan Dib: it's a really good,

it's a really good book.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I thought that was a really good book, but he come, he kind of forms a lot of the similar conclusions to you that it's,a lot of the success, a lot of the ways that you'll kind of look back on your life and not the things that you're striving for every single day.

So, really good book. so yeah, I'm on my journey to kind of. It sounds a little bit cringe, I think, but kind of figuring out what success is and what to prioritize each day and how to think about goals and all of those sorts of things. I'm thinking that through every single day and, I really appreciate your book and your work and,it's helped me in the journey.

Tim Schurrer: Well, [00:49:00] it makes me so happy. I, and I love that you even just reached out after having read it and wanted to have this conversation and. all of us, I think we're trying to figure out what success is and if there's been a North Star for me, as I was writing this book a quote by a guy named Albert Schweitzer that I love, and he says, I don't know what your destiny will be.

Some of you'll perhaps occupy remarkable positions. Perhaps some of you'll become famous by your pens or as artists, but I know one thing, the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve.

Allan Dib: I love

Tim Schurrer: And if there is a big idea that I live by, it's that, it's like, if I try to help other people win, I think I'm gonna be fine.

And so that's the way the Secret Society is, help other people win.

Allan Dib: I love that. That's [00:50:00] so good. I once heard, Brian Tracy say that the Latin word for the word deserve is comes from service, right? we think of deserve as,something that's owed to you or whatever, but he said it comes from service,

so I love that. Thank you so much, Tim, I appreciate your time. I appreciate all the work that you're doing, and thank you for putting this book together. I think it's a valuable message and something that a lot of, people should hear and read. So the book is The Secret Society of Success.

I already wanna be part of that suc society even before I read the book, who doesn't wanna be part of a secret society. So, well done. Tim. Thanks so much. I really appreciate your time.

Tim Schurrer: Appreciate you having me. Thanks so much.

Allan Dib: My pleasure.. ​

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