Is Your Business a Job or a Calling? With Michael Gerber

Michael: [00:00:00]

I walked into McDonald's to buy my hamburger, I came face to face with a business system.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: And I walked out of McDonald's without that hamburger saying to myself, I can do that. Meaning I could do what Ray Kroc did.

And that's what I did.

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Allan: Welcome to the Lean Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Allan Dib. The Lean Marketing Podcast is all about doing less marketing and getting bigger results.

Today, I'm incredibly just honored to have a guest who's been an idol of mine for a very long time. Welcome Michael Gerber. Welcome, Michael. How are you?

Michael: I'm delighted, Allan. I'm just pleased to be with you. I know you're in Melbourne Australia. I am. And perhaps the sound difficulty we've been having is [00:01:00] because you're so far away, but I'm delighted to be here.

Allan: I'm delighted to have you. You know, your book, The E-Myth, whenever I ask people, and this is certainly true for me is one of the pivotal books that really helped us systemize our businesses, that helped us grow, that really changed our way of thinking. And the book is written in a real story format.

It's very unusual for a business book. I would love to hear your thoughts. How did The E-Myth come about? Where did it come from? How did you come up with the idea? And how does it feel, I guess, being someone who's been so influential in the lives of so many entrepreneurs? I guess many questions I've thrown at you there, but maybe let's start with the origin of the book.

Michael: I'll respond to it very simply. I started Our company then in 1977 as the very first small business development firm on the planet.

Allan: [00:02:00] Wow

Michael: My partner and I, his name was Thomas. I say was because Thomas passed created the Michael Thomas Corporation and the Michael Thomas Corporation was a product of what I had been doing for a very brief time working with some clients of a advertising agency, and those clients were having difficulty converting the advertising agency's leads into sales.

And so the founder of the ad agency asked me if I would meet with several of his clients to see what the problem was. And so I began to do that.

Allan: Was your background as a business consultant at the time?

Michael: No, I wasn't a business consultant. I wasn't even interested in business.

Allan: Okay, so what made him think that you could help them? Um,

Michael: First of all, he was my brother in law.

Allan: Right.

Michael: And he and I spoke over and over again about so many different [00:03:00] things. And he was so moved by my perspective, primarily my perspective on life primarily my perspective on sales, because early on my life, I was taught how to sell encyclopedias, door to door.

Allan: Got it.

Michael: And the way I learned how to sell encyclopedias door to door was by memorizing a script.

And then going down the street using that script and selling encyclopedias.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: And I described this to my brother-in-law, and he couldn't believe it. he just couldn't believe that anybody would do that, first of all. And that I was successful at doing that, second of all.

Allan: Yeah.

Michael: And I told him the only reason I was successful at doing that was because I had studied the saxophone for [00:04:00] 12 years with my great saxophone teacher, whose name was Merle Johnson.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: And Merle would beat me up every Saturday. And he would beat me up because I hadn't memorized what Merle taught me to memorize And so I had developed the skill to memorize music.

Allan: Got it.

Michael: So when I answered an ad to sell encyclopedias. And the sales manager told me I had to memorize 15 minutes of a script and then come back after having memorized it. And I came back the very next day having memorized that first 15 minutes. He couldn't believe it.

He gave me the rest of the script to memorize and I memorized the rest of the script and he couldn't [00:05:00] believe it. And then he drove five of us out on the street and dropped us off to call on Holmes on that street. And I came back with my very first sale and he couldn't believe it. And so I learned how to sell encyclopedias, the long and the short of it.

Well, I did a number of things after that, but I told Ace this story And I said, Ace, it's simply a selling a system. I said, more than likely, your clients don't have a selling system. So he said, well, will you meet with them and find out? So I said, sure. And of course they didn't have a selling system.

They had salespeople who were learned how to sell.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: And they had salespeople who learned the technology.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: But they never had a salespeople who [00:06:00] used their selling system because they didn't have one.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: And sure enough, as I met with the very first client of his, you Of course, he didn't have a selling system.

In short, this is how you sell what we do. And so I told my brother-in-law, until they have a selling system, everybody would be doing it differently. And of course, because everybody was doing it differently, that's why they had the problem they had. He said, well, can you teach them how to create a selling system?

And I said,

So my very first client I taught how to create a selling system too.

Allan: And so how long were you consulting before you decided to write the E-Myth? And what made you write it in such a

Michael: Oh, 10 years.

Allan: And what made you write it in such a story format? Because that was unusual, certainly at the time. It's even unusual now to [00:07:00] write a business book in a story kind of

Michael: Very, very simply, I learned over those 10 years, after creating the Michael Thomas Corporation. What was missing in the picture and in the process of teaching a selling system, I also learned they didn't have a management system. They didn't have a marketing system.

They didn't have a financial system. They didn't understand what a system was. And during that course of time, as I walked into McDonald's to buy my hamburger, I came face to face with a business system.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: And I walked out of McDonald's without that hamburger saying to myself, I can do that. Meaning I could do what Ray Kroc did. And if I can do what Ray Kroc did, I can transform the state of small business [00:08:00] worldwide. This is what I said to myself. And that's what I did.

Allan: So, but you could have written the book as an instructional manual. Here's how to set up a system. Here's what to do and all of that.

Michael: The reason I wrote the book is because one of my employees, Fiance, and she invited him to come to hear me do a seminar. And he came to hear my seminar called key frustrations in a small and growing business and what to do about them. And he said to me, have you ever thought of writing a book? I said, no, I haven't thought of writing a book.

What about? He said the seminar. And I said, no, I never thought about it. He said, well, I'll go back to Ballinger and get them to publish it. And I'll come back once [00:09:00] I do that. And I'll edit your book. Okay. And he came back and he said, yeah, they want to do the book.

Allan: Nice.

Michael: And yeah, I'm going to edit the book.

but you wrote the book in like a kind of a story format talking about a woman who has a bakery and Yeah, but that was E-Myth revisited.

Allan: Oh, that was revisited. Right. Okay.

Michael: Yeah. The first book, the E-Myth didn't have those stories in it.

Allan: Got it. Got it. What made you do a story format for the E-Myth Revisited?

Michael: Well, the first book was successful, but not as successful as the second book was. And the second book told all these stories.

Allan: Mmmm

Michael: Because my then wife said, why don't you tell the stories of some of the clients you've done this for? And I said, okay. So that's [00:10:00] where Sarah came from.

Allan: I think that's very insightful because You essentially had very similar material from the E-Myth to the E-Myth Revisited, but the thing that made the E-Myth Revisited so successful is the story format that you did.

Michael: Yes, Yes.

Allan: Which I think is so powerful because stories just stick in your mind. I mean, it's been years since I read the E-Myth book, but I remember the Sarah Bakery story and all that sort of thing.

Michael: No, I got it. And that's what truly made the E-Myth. As successful as it was. The E-Myth Revisited has sold over 2 million copies.

Allan: Wow. Wow

Michael: It's the 7th most successful business book ever published.

Allan: I believe that. Yeah.

Michael: Think about that.

Allan: Yeah.

Michael: And it's the stories That did it. So small business owners identified with Sarah.

Allan: Of course.

Michael: As you've said.

Allan: As I've said, yeah. And as I experienced, I mean, I [00:11:00] was a small business owner at the time. I was struggling. I listened to it on audio at the time. And I think you were narrating in your voice and. telling the story. And I was really connecting with that.

And I don't think I would have connected with it as much if it was just an instructional textbook that said, okay, number one, number two, number three, it's the stories that have been And that's something I've kept in mind in my head.

Michael: As a textbook, it never would have done

Allan: Yeah.

Michael: What it did as a storybook.

Allan: I agree. I fully agree.

Michael: Never would have.

Allan: what are the major things that you see businesses struggle with now? I mean, it's been decades since the E-Myth came out, but we've got now a lot of technology, we've got computers, now we've got artificial intelligence, we've got all sorts of tools.

What are you seeing as some of the biggest challenges people have in terms of systemizing their business, systemizing their marketing, all of those sorts of things? Is it a mindset issue? Is it a tools issue? What are you [00:12:00] seeing as the biggest challenges are?

Michael: Allan this is hard to believe, and it's hard to believe because the world has changed so much

Allan: Yes.

Michael: Since I wrote that book.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: But nothing has changed.

Allan: I agree.

Michael: Um, The failure rate of business is identically the same today as it was then. It's a horror story.

Allan: It is, I agree.

Michael: With all the tools, with all of the coaches, with all of the consultants, with all of the technology, Small businesses fail at the very same rate as they failed way back at the very beginning of all this.

They fail for the very same reason, Allan. They're not entrepreneurs. They're technicians suffering from an entrepreneurial seizure.

Allan: Mm

Michael: They create a job for themselves.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: They haven't a vision. They haven't [00:13:00] the Insight. They don't have the passion that Steve Jobs talked about.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: It's the passion, stupid. And it's not the passion for the money. It's not the passion to grow. It's the passion to create. And so the distinction between an entrepreneur and every single one of these guys who go into business is the passion to create something unique, to create something original, to create something that has meaning, to create something that has passion to it, to create something that makes a difference in the world.

Steve Jobs was a creator.

Allan: I fully agree. But there are many people who have passion for what they do. So for example, they're an excellent technician, as you say, they're an excellent baker, butcher, candlestick maker, whatever else. And they love the thing that they do, but often they don't have [00:14:00] a passion for the business of what they do.

So often they,

Michael: But they don't even have a passion for meat. They don't have a passion for anything they do. They want to make a living. There's no passion a butcher. to do that. He's not passionate to open a store. He's not passionate, like an artist is passionate for his writing, as a musician is passionate for his music. That doesn't exist in the vast majority of people who go into business. They want to make it on their own. They want to get rid of the boss.

Allan: Well, there are also business owners who are incredibly successful at boring businesses that would be very hard to be passionate about. For example, someone manufactures shoes or shoelaces or screws or something like that.

Michael: But you said, but they're passionate for it. But the distinction between those who are [00:15:00] passionate for it, is markedly different from everybody else in the business. And you can't instill passion in someone. You find it in them. They're like mad men. How in the world is this guy so crazy passionate for what he does?

It's so boring to everybody else. And they're like lunatics.

Allan: Fair enough.

Michael: They're mad men. They're mad women. They're crazy. It's that crazy in quotes.

Allan: Yeah.

Michael: So, the work I've been doing over all these years, Allan, is creating crazy.

Allan: I love that. Yeah.

Michael: And creating crazy is the ball game.

Allan: Where did you get the idea for this thing that you called the entrepreneurial seizure or the E-Myth? So

Michael: It just came to me. [00:16:00]

Allan: It just came to you? Yeah, amazing.

Michael: It just came to me. Where does anybody get anything? It just comes to them. There's an expression, Allan, and it comes from Genesis. Born in the image of God.

I've added to that, born to create. Born to create a world fit for God. So if we're born to create, I'm suggesting that's what's missing in the vast majority of us. But If you look inside of yourself, Allan, what is it that drives you to do what you do?

Allan: It's multifaceted, but certainly what drives me now is probably different to what drove me earlier. So earlier, desperation drove me. my parents were on welfare when I grew up.

I didn't have much money. I didn't have anything. And so I wanted to make money, right? And so I wanted to be successful. I wanted to live in a nice house. I didn't want to have to worry about money. Like my parents worried about it. So what drove me earlier was desperation. Now I do very well. I live in an [00:17:00] amazing place.

I've got plenty of income and plenty of capital and all of that sort of thing. So what drives me now is being able to make so much change in the lives of so many businesses and entrepreneurs all over the world. Like literally every single day I have people sending me emails saying, thank you for the one page marketing plan. Thank you for Lean Marketing. It changed my business. It changed the way I'm thinking about marketing. And so, my driving force has changed over time.

Michael: So I'm going to suggest something that may upset you.

Allan: Sure. Please.

Michael: That's not passion.

Allan: Okay. That's fair enough.

Michael: It's not passion because if it were passion, it would drive you like desperation did at the beginning.

Allan: So there are a lot of passionate business owners who fail also though. So passion can't be the only ingredient.

Michael: I know. And there are very successful people who aren't passionate.

Allan: Totally.

Michael: And [00:18:00] when I think of passion, I think of Charlie Parker, saxophone player.

Allan: Yes.

Michael: Are you familiar with jazz?

Allan: A little bit. No, I'm not a huge jazz fan, but yeah, I know Charlie Parker.

Michael: Yeah, I am, but when I think of it, there's a madness to it. Yes. And that madness to it drives us. It's almost like to drink. There is this madness to a very small percentage of people on the planet. Warren Buffett says fewer than 2 percent of people possess What's called for to create something extraordinary.

Musk.

Allan: Yeah

Michael: says fewer than 1 percent of the people on the planet possess what it takes to do what I've done. I've done drives me crazy.

Allan: Yeah, I agree.

Michael: He said, nobody knows what it feels like to be me. He [00:19:00] said.

Allan: I agree.

Michael: Nobody.

Allan: I agree. So If we haven't been able to move the business success statistics over many decades, after writing books, building systems, teaching, marketing, all of those sorts of things, is the work that we're doing in vain? Is it just a matter of finding people who are passionate or trying to inspire passion? Like if we haven't been able to make more businesses successful, then what's the work that we're doing?

Michael: No, and the Reason why is because we're starting too late.

We're starting with mid market companies. We're starting with large small businesses. We're starting trying to fix companies that are there already. And I'm saying the only way this is going to happen if we start at the very beginning with startups, even before they start.

Allan: Okay

Michael: So something has to occur [00:20:00] in the minds and hearts of people who are beginning to imagine they want to go into small business. And capturing their attention at the very beginning. Haven't done that. Nobody's really done that.

Allan: Why not?

Michael: Well, it's simply because they have no money. They've got no way of hearing what we're saying. And so we've got to capture their attention in a way that we haven't done so far.

Allan: I agree. I agree. I mean I struggled for many years before I found material like yours. Material that helped me dramatically build business systems, helped me with marketing, helped me understand all of those sorts of things. I was a broke technician for a very long time.

So, I agree. I wish this was taught sooner. I wish someone had captured my attention sooner as, you say. I think that's a very insightful thought. So, [00:21:00] how to do that? I think now we've got more tools than ever. We've now got free tools, social media, we've got, various ways, but it's whether, teacher arrives when the student is ready, right?

So a lot of people will not be paying attention until they do feel that pain.

Michael: I want you to imagine, Allan, you said the thing that caught you up at the very beginning was you were desperate. Yes. I want you to imagine me saying to you, Allan,

how desperate are you, really? And you would say to me, I'm really desperate.

Allan: Probably. Yeah,

Michael: and I'd say, Allan, I don't believe you're as desperate as you think you are. So let me tell you what's really going to be called for. Being as desperate as you think you are. Are you able to pay attention to me, Allan? Are you really interested in learning what you need to learn in order to get what you really want to get? To understand why, when you get it, it won't mean anything to you? Really?

[00:22:00] As desperate as you say you are to spend some time to learn what absolutely is necessary for you to learn to transform the state of whatever it is you're ready to transform and to learn it every single step of the way. Are you open to the possibility, Allan, to spend the time and energy to really become who you hope you can become?

In a way, you can't imagine becoming it, are you?

Allan: I wish you were there in my 20s telling me that.

Michael: Yeah, that's gotta happen at the very beginning, Allan.

Allan: Yeah. I agree. I agree.

Michael: Yep. And you've got to spend the time and attention to do that. So, Allan, I want you to read a book. It's called Banker to the Poor.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: By Mohamed Younis.

Allan: [00:23:00] I'll read it.

Michael: The founder of Grameen Bank. Are you familiar with it?

Allan: No, I'm not.

Michael: Yeah. It's the most important book you'll ever read.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: So we'ree beginning again with a different kind of desperation, a desperation that's going to drive Allan to go far beyond where Allan is today, far beyond Lean Marketing.

Allan: Okay. I love that.

Michael: Far beyond where you are today, Allan.

Allan: What do you think I'm missing?

Michael: A desperation to become the most extraordinary individual in the world of small business

Allan: Okay

Michael: that's ever been created on the planet. A desperation to create something you've never created before.

Allan: I love creating things.

Michael: Get the book, banker to the Poor.

Allan: Okay, I'lll read that.

Michael: It's the most important book you've ever read.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: And read the introduction to it.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: And then [00:24:00] email me and say, Michael, I've read the introduction to Banker to the Poor.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: And you're going to write the introduction to your own story in a way you've never thought before.

Allan: All right.

Michael: And I'm going to walk you through a process, Allan, I call the dreaming room.

Allan: Okay, tell me.

Michael: Introduce you to the eight essential personalities of a great entrepreneur. The personalities are the dreamer, the thinker, the storyteller, the leader, the designer, the builder, The launcher, the grower.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: But I'm not going to do that until you've read Banker to the Poor.

Allan: Okay, I'll commit to you that I'll read that.

Michael: Muhammad Yunus received the Nobel Prize for creating Grameen Bank. I want you to receive the Nobel Prize for [00:25:00] creating what you're going to create, but only after you put into this the same thing that Muhammad Yunus did.

Allan: What did he put into it?

Michael: More than you can possibly imagine, his entire life,

Allan: Okay.

Michael: In a way you can't possibly imagine, until you read the book.

Allan: Alright, I'll do that today.

Michael: Yeah, do that today, and then read the whole book.

Allan: Okay.

Michael: And once you've read the whole book, then come back to me and say, Michael, I've read the whole book. I get it.

Allan: All right. I'm down.

Michael: Walk me through the dreaming room.

Allan: Well, Michael you've always been someone who's expanded my thinking and I thank you for that. in my early entrepreneurial career was someone who. Change the way I thought about business, change the way I thought about systems, certainly. And I've taken a systems approach to every area of my life. I mean, even my fitness, my [00:26:00] health, certainly my business, of course, certainly marketing.

And, lot of people have thanked me for helping them with their marketing systems, through the one page marketing plan through Lean Marketing, all of those sorts of things. But I definitely think of you as an early mentor, even though we've only met in person once.

a couple of decades ago. You were speaking at the Melbourne Convention Centre. I came to see you speak my business partner at the time. So we've only met that one time, and I think we've only spoken once before. And so, yeah it's incredible how someone can have such an impact.

Michael: Well, thank you, Allan. Think about this as you've been through grammar school.

Allan: Yeah.

Michael: You've been through high school. You've been through college, but now you're going into a completely different school.

Allan: I love it.

Michael: And Grameen Bank, and Muhammad Yunus, and Banker to the Poor is going to take you beyond anything [00:27:00] you ever imagined you'd create.

And as we do that, you're going to turn around and realize I haven't even begun to do what was there to do.

Allan: Amazing.

Michael: And as you do that, everything's going to change. I promise you that. Well, let me tell you what I want out of this.

Allan: Sure.

Michael: As you do what I'm recommending that you do, when we do that, we'll then partner in taking this out to small business in a way that you've never done and I'm prepared to do.

Allan: Amazing.

Michael: To truly transform the state of small business worldwide.

Allan: Amazing. Amazing. Well, if I was ever going to take anyone's word for it, it would be yours, Michael. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I appreciate all that you've done, and thank you for spending that time with me today.

And also food. challenging me. I mean, [00:28:00] it's the most valuable people in my life are not people who just say yes and tell me how great I am and all of that, but they're people who actively challenge me as you did. So thank you so much, Michael.

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