Is Your Sales Approach Backwards? Discover the Untapped Power You Already Possess with Oren Klaff

Is Your Sales Approach Backwards? Discover the Untapped Power You Already Possess with Oren Klaff
===

[00:00:00] Oren: I am giving you the most extreme version. Because I deal with Silicon Valley, Manhattan, Goldman Sachs, and those guys are smart, they have lots of money, and they will, kill you and drink your blood a mug made out of your skull.

[00:00:15] the good point is I learned this stuff there. so the human part of this works. for me, it comes with this level of expressiveness, But you can do it in the softest, kindest, simplest way possible.

[00:00:34] ​

[00:00:39] Allan: Welcome to the Lean Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Allan Dib. Today I have got an amazing guest. He's someone whose work I've looked up to for many, many years.

[00:00:47] I read his book, I don't know, I think it was maybe 10 years ago. Is it, was it out 10 years ago? I'm not sure. Something like that.

[00:00:54] Oren: It was 1936, Allan, the year of our Lord.

[00:00:58] Allan: Um, I wanna [00:01:00] welcome the man, the myth, the mystery. Oren Klaff Welcome

[00:01:05] Oren: Amen. Thank you.

[00:01:07] Allan: Oren. You've written a couple of books that have been incredibly influential. So the first one, probably the one you're best known. Uh. With is pitch anything and then there's flip the script. The thing I really appreciate about you is you're not just an academic, you're not just an author. You actually are a practitioner of this in everyday life.

[00:01:25] You're in the finance world, you're doing deals every day. How did you build this framework around? Being able to pitch something in a very compelling way where somebody not only listens, but pays attention, but most importantly takes action

[00:01:41] Oren: Yeah. I want to answer that directly, but just something, you know, pops into my mind when you say, Hey, you're a practitioner today, the world has been divided in sort of books and videos. Those are the books you hear about are entertainers. Like they, they don't [00:02:00] do because you can't write in order to have a book that's Popular and singing and video.

[00:02:06] That, that takes those guys all fucking day. I know we have to do it. Right? So some, the days that I have to do book promotion or a video, like, it's the whole day. I mean, I have a job. So it's really interesting. The world is divided. You don't have, like, investment bankers or finance guys or the guy that climbed to the top of Kilimanjaro, wrote a book and he's back at it.

[00:02:29] like, in today's world, you did one thing, one time. Something, and then you spend the rest of your time talking about it, and telling stories about it, and, you know, entertaining, and you don't do that stuff anymore.

[00:02:40] Allan: or even worse as I've seen is you don't actually do it. You've never done it. You just wrote about it.

[00:02:46] Oren: Well, I'm trying to give credit to the world I live in. So yeah so this is stuff that I did in the banking realm. So I had a partner who was a very wealthy guy you know, self made, and we went into deal [00:03:00] making mode. And all the stuff that you would have to partner or have a firm or have a fund, he's like fuck it, I am just going to write the checks myself.

[00:03:10] And so that allowed us, you know, to become mercenaries, right, and untethered to the constraints of the financial system. And by that I mean, normally to do the 37 deals we did or whatever it was on a, heavy run. You would have needed to raise a fund, right? And that way you could get in the deal, you could show proof that you had the money, and that you could close on assets, operating those assets, and we had to go in without a two, three hundred million dollar fund, just using his, whatever, twenty, thirty million dollars and find deals, convince the sellers that we could close.

[00:03:46] Close on those deals, operate the deals and get them to go full cycle with a ninja team of four or five people. So that's where I learned from being on a team that really was untethered by the corporate basics and the constraints and the [00:04:00] handcuffs of the financial system. And so in order to do that, you know, you had to have these really you know, Navy SEAL, ninja, whatever you call them, skills that aren't on normal teams.

[00:04:11] So he taught me that stuff. And he was a natural. and I'll give you an example. I don't want to speak too much in these sort of vague terms. So we were doing a deal. And the other party was not closing. So we were We were buying an asset. Right? And they wouldn't, you know, they were not agreeing to a price and they were moving very slowly. And then they retraded or changed the price for like the tenth time. This deal was important to me because when we close, you know, money moves and then I get paid my commission,

[00:04:40] and so we, you know, we're working on this. You imagine like you're finding a 25 million asset. You're underwriting it. You're making an offer on it. You're getting a purchase and sale agreement, you know, all the corporate finance stuff. And then they're legal just as a sign off. And then the money moves and then we own it.

[00:04:56] And they, they changed the price one more time. And [00:05:00] he just sends an email. Only in the subject line, all caps, lose my number. I'm like, Oh fuck, like this deal is dead. My commission is gone. I'm not gonna be able to pay my bills.

[00:05:11] You know, that old story. And I'm just staring at my monitor. And then I hear ding, ding, ding. And I'm like, Oh, here's the FU emails. Like, you know, An email, so sorry, so the response was so sorry, I know we are delayed the signed paperwork is attached, in go mode, you know, deal's closing.

[00:05:29] And I was like, what in the world just happened? Like you said in the most rude email that in my experience would just get you canceled in every corporate situation, anywhere. And then these guys said sorry. Right. And so I saw him do this as a natural in many environments like, Hey, we're out all caps, right?

[00:05:51] Oh, Hey, so sorry. You know, we're close. What is going on here? And so I got exposure to a tiger team [00:06:00] doing a lot of deals, moving real money, working with Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns, JP Morgan, Bank of America. So we're getting real firms and then coming in without the handcuffs of sort of this corporate politeness And coming in, you know, super hard, over the top with this very we're not going to play the polite game that is played in all these situations because you're trying to preserve your career.

[00:06:23] We're doing deals, not trying to preserve our status, our name, our job. We're just actually trying to manipulate, the environment. To our benefit, you know, and close. And so seeing those manipulations happen in real time Gave me some insight that there's a game beneath the game.

[00:06:49] So hopefully that was a long answer, but hopefully some context

[00:06:52] Allan: so was that the moment the penny dropped that, Hey, there's a different way that this game is played. There's that people are buying [00:07:00] emotionally, not through facts and figures and data.

[00:07:04] Oren: I think I said to you when we met, and it's good to see you again. I love being in person with you, you're very, you know, lean marketing you're, it's cause you're lean. So if you're listening to Allan, it's not like lean marketing, we do lean marketing, it's because Allan is lean. It's good to see you again.

[00:07:20] So,

[00:07:21] Allan: You

[00:07:21] too man.

[00:07:22] Oren: And I think I said to you before, for me that moment was like I was going to my wardrobe to get a sweater. And in the back of the wardrobe I saw like a little knob. I'm like, oh, what is this thing? And I pulled on the knob and the door opened. And there, as I said to you before, there's Fucking Narnia back there.

[00:07:38] Witches and magicians and flying ships and like a whole universe things that I didn't know existed. And I was like just flew in their head first so that moment was like, there is a world that I didn't even know existed all around me. And that was the moment. And I [00:08:00] think that's what I did with Pitch Anything.

[00:08:01] I was in the gym last night. I was in the locker room getting changed.

[00:08:06] Uh, We have a steam room, everything. The guy walks up, taps me, he goes, Hey man, I just won't tell you like pitch anything, change my life. And I just wanna say thank you and then, you know, turned around and walk and walked away. And the reason people do that. And I have that experience, is because I opened for them the same door that was opened for me.

[00:08:24] There's a world around you that you have not been taught to see, and it's not in your natural vision awareness. But, after you know it exists, you can't unsee it. And you can see a game around you that was invisible before.

[00:08:42] Allan: remember a very similar moment in my early business career. I was dead broke IT geek. I was struggling. I was trying to figure out how to get clients. And I had this mentor who was kind of essentially like my rich dad, my version of rich dad, and the penny dropped for me when he said, well, you [00:09:00] know, I was telling him how good our stuff was, how our clients loved us, all of this.

[00:09:03] And he said, well, when does someone know how good you are? Before they buy, they only know how good your marketing is. And I'm like, Oh shit. Like, you know, I've been focusing on trying to better product, better service, better this, better that. And, you know, we've been taught ever since school that everything's a meritocracy, but very untrue you know, life was a meritocracy, nurses, firefighters, they'd be the, the most highly paid people in the world.

[00:09:28] Unfortunately, it's

[00:09:29] Oren: moms

[00:09:30] Allan: you.

[00:09:30] Oren: would, every mom would make a billion dollars.

[00:09:34] Allan: Yeah totally, So, with Pitch Anything, you talk a lot about frame control. Talk about that a little bit. Where does that come from and talk about the importance of frame control, because it's often not what you say. It's even, it's how you say it. It's how you position it.

[00:09:48] It's not the actual words. The words can be the same, but have a very different impact.

[00:09:53] Oren: So, if you listen to my last, you know, thousand podcasts, I don't prophetize the book, but [00:10:00] if you're interested in, like, whatever, chapter two in the book is frame control. It just lays it out very cleanly. The times that I've tried to talk about it, it is a very good written subject, but I'm going to talk about it here for you.

[00:10:13] Most of the time I just defer, like read the book but, but for you. Because I like you, I'm going to try and get into frame control cleanly. , so when somebody introduces you to a client, okay? Who introduces you is very important.

[00:10:29] If they are somebody that the client doesn't respect, If they are somebody the client hasn't done business with, if they are somebody the client is suspicious of, and they introduce you, Allan, you know, to the potential client, that is a frame. Right? Which is this low status, somebody I don't trust that much, is introducing, and so the frame you're coming in on is a low status frame.

[00:10:55] Right? Suspicion. If the person who's introducing you is, say, like, their [00:11:00] attorney. Okay, I want you to choose Allan. Right? you know, he's involved with marketing. I think you should have a conversation with him. You're coming in on a high credibility frame. So the framing is, this is a good quality person that you can trust.

[00:11:14] Or the framing is, this is somebody that you should have some inherent suspicion of because of where it's coming from. So for example, if people go, hey, I want to introduce you to a potential deal. I go, don't. Don't do that. Right? It's not that I'm interested in the deal. I just don't want to get to the deal through you. Because it's going to queer, or frame or dilute, or pollute, or cloud. But really it's the framing around me will be weak. And I want strong framing on this deal. I'll find another way in, but I'm not interested in having you frame me up for this deal. So what happens is Because when you go into the deal or the [00:12:00] client, they have a frame, right?

[00:12:02] Which is, I'm the big bear that shits in the woods, right? people come in, right? They present to me. I hold my chin and I go very, you know, kind of very interesting. You know, why don't you send me the material? I'll take a look at it. If we have any questions, you know, we'll get back to you. We still want to talk to a bunch of people.

[00:12:21] And it's early days in the process, right? And I don't want to be, sort of, um, uh, have this, interaction between us overcome by language. But when somebody says that to me, right, I say two things. Go fuck yourself, okay? And then I tell myself, go fuck yourself, because I know this lesson, I've learned it a million times.

[00:12:42] No one says that to you if you are framed correctly. So I'll just go a little bit further. no one says that to me anymore because I have frame control. They don't dare say it. We're not framed up to say it and we can get into that. But they have a frame which is I [00:13:00] collect information. Right?

[00:13:01] Then I go get a bunch of bids. Then I come and I negotiate the other bids against you. And I try and get the most amount of your labor for the least amount of risk at the lowest price. That is the frame that every client has. And so, if your frame is I have to earn this business.

[00:13:19] To your point. I have to show features, benefits, value proposition, track record, capability, ability to invest, and ability to do free work in order to win this client's attention. That is framing. Right? They are framed as the king, and you are framed as the court jester who has to juggle and ride a unicycle around in order to win the attention and accolades of the king.

[00:13:44] This framing is completely wrong, okay? and so there's many, many different ways to reframe that situation where the perspective or the way the client sees the world is they are [00:14:00] very lucky to have 15 minutes of Allan's time. And if they don't behave well in that 15 minutes, they're not gonna get any more time with the only guy in the world who knows how to solve their problem.

[00:14:13] Allan: so in the situation that you described where you don't want that particular guy introducing you to the deal because you know, it's going to frame you in a weak way. What are you just finding somebody else who's connected to the deal or

[00:14:26] Oren: I'm finding somebody else. If I want that deal and they don't introduce me, I don't want that introduction. I'm finding somebody that I know has the status, you know, the respect and the credibility to introduce us. A low quality introduction, it reframes you as a low quality, you know, potential partner, and then multiple negative things happen.

[00:14:49] that you cannot dig yourself out of. So, framing is just an incredible concept. And you say, how am I framed up? and the reason I use the word frame is because we're familiar with a window frame you know, a [00:15:00] painting. So, when that potential partner looks at me through this window frame, what do they see, right?

[00:15:09] And you have to control that framing. So, framing, I love, I have this I'll send it to you. I have this great set of images. Where, I'll just describe it to you you know, it's some fish swimming, right, and then the frame opens up a little bit, right, and they're in a school of fish, so you see what's going on, and then the frame opens up a little bit, and there's like a, you know, a bigger fish, eating this, you know, school of fish, and then it pulls back, and there's a shark, like, eating the whole thing, like, where, the size of the frame, the focus of it, and the size of the frame, Controls what people see and so when they see you, what is in frame and what is out of frame as simple as it is, you know, if you have a great track record, right, you want to put your track record in frame if you're just starting [00:16:00] out and you don't have a track record, you know, you want your track record out of frame.

[00:16:05] So what is it that they are going to see, and the complexity then is framing is not just information. The framing of information is critical. That's what, you know, everybody who does a website or marketing, you know, frames information. But now, I want to bring you into a world where you are framing your status.

[00:16:23] You are framing your power. You are framing your values. You are framing your quality. And you are framing your time. And that is where emotional power is. Control over deals really comes from when you're framing the things that is not intuitive and is not seeable.

[00:16:41] Allan: And how do you account for different personalities? Cause I've seen this, all range of personalities in a sales or a deal context, I've seen kind of the loud people, the bombastic people. And then there's just the quiet person who just seems to carry themselves and have a lot of [00:17:00] power but still not come off weak.

[00:17:02] So in a sales context. I think being yourself is incredibly important. I think if you're trying to put a different personality on, if you're trying to be a Grant Cardone or some cigar chomping person who you're really not, if that's you, great, you know, feet up on the table, cigar chomping, all of that sort of stuff.

[00:17:20] But if you're a quieter, more reserved personality what are the things that you've got to think about in terms of framing and coming across as high status versus low status?

[00:17:31] Oren: So, I have a very specific answer to this, but I want to start to work our way in from the edges. You know, a lot of my personality is manufactured. So I know what works, I bring what works, and it allows me to control environments. So I go, you know, all the way back to high school, you know, I was a quiet kid, computer programming.

[00:17:50] You know, played soccer, not football. My parents are from, you know, South Africa. My parents are academic. I love reading. You know, a lot of what you get here is sort of a manufactured [00:18:00] effect of being in business. and I have both sides of that personality. Quiet, contemplative, you know, you're able to listen.

[00:18:07] Big, over the top. Take control of situations, so I can do either. The reality is, whatever side of that you fall on, quiet, thoughtful, intentional, you know, speak softly or, you know, bombastic, intense expressive your thoughts want to come out the second you have them.

[00:18:28] Whether you're on one side or the other in the middle. But the most important thing is to control the moral center of the conversation. So in Western culture, there's things that are control status and the perspective of the value of a person. and those values are work, working hard in Western culture, right?

[00:18:54] Working hard, showing up on time, doing what you say, your word [00:19:00] is your bond having transparency, clarity, thinking before you speak presenting numbers that are credible, and having the things you say out there on your website and your documents match the things you say in conversation.

[00:19:17] Right? And so there's not an air gap, there's not a big uh, discrepancy between all the things, you know, the things that are online, the things you are, the things you say, And so those are all things that are at the center of a deal, is the truth, honesty, integrity, and values.

[00:19:35] So whether you're soft spoken, you know, and somebody's saying blah, blah, blah, blah, blah the easy way to get frame control is, Allan, I like you. But you are confusing me because I don't understand who you really are. I look at your website, right? And you guys say, you know, you're a marketing firm. I've talked to you in person.

[00:19:56] You sound like a finance company. Right? And so [00:20:00] what is really going on here because it's not clear who you really are and it's confusing what you're saying. And then to follow up and say, we are very simple people, right? you know, for the last, five years, we put out proposals that say X and we do X.

[00:20:20] We don't stop when we're tired. We stop when we're done. If we lose money doing it because we said we do it, then we do that because we can afford to, right? If you look back across time, there's no one will say they didn't drag it across the line. Sure, right? We've missed the mark, you know, a couple times.

[00:20:37] That just means we stay late. We work across the weekend, sometimes we even put our own money in it. But we get it done no matter what. I look at you, right, and I see a whole bunch of problems, and I see some confusing things, right? Can you help me understand who you really are? And then I have frame control, right? I occupy the moral center. Hard work, we stick to our word [00:21:00] if we make a mistake, right, we fix it. don't change our business model. So you're not saying we're a good person, we work hard, we, you know, our clients are Microsoft, right? You're saying, look, you're confusing me because when we look at the world, we see it through this lens and we look at you and it's all out of focus.

[00:21:21] So help me understand who you, so I've said that to billionaires and I'll give you a more simple version of it.

[00:21:26] If you talk to somebody, if you schedule a call with somebody who manages a lot of money, one thing I can tell you 100 percent for sure, crystal ball, what will happen is they will come late to the call. Why? Because they're the big swinging, you know, rooster, and you are the whale shit on the bottom of the boat.

[00:21:44] Okay? That's the way the world is, and they're gonna come late, right? And so, what I learned over time is I go, Hey, Allan. Are you here for the 1008 meeting? Because you want me to catch you up on the 10 o'clock meeting? So I've said that to every billionaire I've ever met. I've [00:22:00] worked for three billionaires in their office.

[00:22:01] You know, I've met plenty of, you know, billionaires and billion dollar family offices. I've said that a hundred times. And a hundred times, there's been a pause. And they go, yeah, we're sorry. You know, we had this call, we're closing. Like, this is an exploratory call, we're closing a 500 million deal. It ran long.

[00:22:19] I understand. Why? Because the, in our culture, being on time, whether you're a billionaire, or you're a valet guy, everybody understands that's at the dead center of what we value. So you're saying to a billionaire, you're weird, and I'm normal, okay? And he's gonna want to get back into alignment. Because he sees himself more important than you, but he's lost, you know, he's lost that frame of being more important.

[00:22:49] So, what, you'll have ability to go, I'm sorry, you know, next time we meet, if there's a next time I'll make sure to come early and bring my team. And so, so that is, if you want to, if you want to watch frame control [00:23:00] in action, right? as people come in and they invariably do, right, that are more powerful than you, go, you know, Hey Joe, are you here for the 10 o'clock call?

[00:23:09] Because I can catch you up on what happened at the 10 o'clock call. And, And everyone will laugh just like you are, you know, but they'll laugh. You can't, You can't be a dick, okay? You need to have some vocal intonation There's a, there's a way out of this escape room, right? There's a way out of this escape room, but you're gonna have to sort of fight your way out.

[00:23:29] There has to be a way out. You can't be a dick about it. You have to say, you know, seriously but not seriously. You have to work with your vocal. But you will get apologized to. And that's not a good place to start a call when you're apologizing to the other person. If you listen on my call, I'm happy to have you listen in, I would say 8 out of 10 of the calls I have, the other person will start, will apologize within the first 60 seconds.

[00:23:52] Because it's not that I'm interested in manipulating people into apologizing, but like, I show up on time, my team is organized, you know, because I know [00:24:00] that I can control the frame just by being on time, organized and everything, you know, and having my stuff together and prepared. I was on a pitch yesterday.

[00:24:10] This is interesting. So we seek money for our deal. You know, we have a big company we're capitalizing it, investors come in and so I was on a pitch with a, you know, wealth advisory firm and they had their clients on the call. So we, I'm just setting it up like we're spending time and energy to try and win their money and convince them that we have a good deal.

[00:24:32] So I walk him through it and I finish the pitch and I go, you know, so this is a good time if you have any questions or if I confuse you or you know, want to talk about it a little bit. And, you know, one of the guy comes on, so we're interested in getting this guy's money. And he comes on and he goes, well, you know, I don't understand how you can guarantee that you can go public.

[00:24:53] I go, well, first of all, nobody can guarantee anything, so stop using that word. Okay, so right off the bat, right, [00:25:00] you can see the opportunities to get frame control. This is a finance call. I'm like, I will hang up if you use the word guarantee again. So we're trying to get the money, right? Not give it.

[00:25:10] Allan: Yeah.

[00:25:10] Oren: If you use the word guarantee again, I will get off this Zoom call. And all these other people will have lose the opportunity to ask their questions. So stop doing that. Second, the way the capital markets work, and I explained to him you can always go public. Like Nasdaq doesn't restrict you from going public.

[00:25:29] It's, you know, is it a good time? Will you win by doing it? But. There's no reason you can't go public. Right? So I don't want to wipe your nose in it, man. Let's focus on the things here that you can control your understanding of. Right? And so let me help you. So I helped him a little bit.

[00:25:46] you know, there's another guy goes asks a question. Remember, we're trying to win the money. I'm going to land this plane. But he goes, you know, How do you, like, how do you see the competition from LG? LG is a big, you know, company. One of the [00:26:00] competitors. And I go, man, what are we even doing here?

[00:26:03] Like, did I just give an hour long presentation on this? like, what can you invest 500, 000? Like, that's a question from somebody who can invest 5 million, right? you think? Like we forgot about LG, there's three companies. In the United States to do this, we're the fourth.

[00:26:19] We're like, holy crap, we've been doing this for fucking five years, right? And you, who've never heard about this industry before, other than my one hour presentation, are like, what are you gonna do about LG? Right? what is going on with you? Okay? Oh yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, so, now I have two people apologizing to me.

[00:26:40] Because, why? You know, the framing, I have to regain the framing of, I've been doing this for five years, you've been doing this for zero minutes, right? So, you have to suspend this belief, that the ballance of things that I'm telling you are true. [00:27:00] If we can't get there, then we don't have a conversation.

[00:27:05] Okay, so anyway, so all this happens, we get off the phone, and obviously the guy Who set up the call is flaming mad because he's like, you flamed my clients and you flamed my employees. so we said, look, you wasted the first 15 minutes of the call where we could have settled, you know, on, on nonsense, right?

[00:27:25] You framed up this call poorly, right? Because the clients came in, you know, we saw some of them were like playing Tetris or moving along or, you know, not paying attention. Framed up poorly and your staff was not trained. So we had to jump in and do all the work in real time that you didn't do ahead of time.

[00:27:45] Okay? And what you saw there is real work happening. And so, on one hand you thought we were tough talking with your clients, right? We were right because we had to get them back in alignment. [00:28:00] 'cause you didn't do any of the pre-work that's necessary to have a call like this. And so guess what they said?

[00:28:07] I'm sorry, the point of all of this is, you could be as tough as you want, tough as nails, like how you imagine Bill Gates is, or Elon Musk is in a call, right? You can be the toughest pirate who was the uh, Jesse Jeans with like the pay me on, you know, tattooed on each knuckle, right, or cash only or whatever.

[00:28:28] You can be whatever character you envision in your mind, as long as you take the moral center. Right? Which is, we show up prepared, we have prepared for this, we show up on time, we work hard, we do what we say, and we deliver you we worked really hard to condense this very complicated information into a short bundle, and we're here to support you, and try and make your life better. Alright? And so as long as you take that middle ground, then you have frame control.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Allan: So I know what some of the comments are going to be on this episode, people are going to say

[00:29:04] uh,

[00:29:04] Oren: I'm, I'm a woman, I would never talk like that, is

[00:29:07] Allan: well, no, not necessarily even a woman. It'd be like, that's manipulation, you know, that's and I mean,

[00:29:14] Oren: Well, I want to talk about pick up lines for a minute, okay? Because my son's 11 and he's like, you know, starting to wonder like, how you talk to people. And you know, I'm like,

[00:29:25] Allan: Has he been reading the game?

[00:29:27] Oren: No, No, he's not ready for that. so, my wife, is freaking out and she's like, just be yourself.

[00:29:33] Right? I'm like, no, like, is the, you know, you're a guy is never good enough just himself. And so, the fact that you're putting some energy into how to talk to somebody. The fact that you are trying to structure a conversation for both sides benefit. The fact that you are not, you have boundaries. And [00:30:00] you're thinking about those boundaries ahead of time, and you have verbal positions to take on those boundaries, right?

[00:30:06] It is not manipulative. It is efficient, and the reality is the other person has put no thought into it. this is what you have to understand, if you follow their direction in the conversation, it's gonna be a shit show, in that they're gonna win. And you're going to lose, So conversation has to follow your direction so it's organized correctly.

[00:30:30] So you're not manipulating the conversation. I don't want to win anything. Like, by the way, I win lots of conversations in which we don't take the investor. Or we don't take the client. Right? So we, I win it and then I go, we don't want to work with you. You're not someone who's a good fit for how we like to live our lives.

[00:30:49] Right? You have money, you have intent, you want to work with us. What we now know about you, we don't want to work with you. give you an example of that. So, it's not manipulative. [00:31:00] It's manipulative if you're just trying to win every conversation and make money from it no matter what. What I think you're trying to do is structure a conversation so it has an outcome.

[00:31:15] It's fair to your investment of time. So if you're a salesperson, You go to an hour long meeting, right? Nobody pays you to go to that meeting. And so, if the outcome is, this looks interesting, why don't you send us a proposal, we'll take a look at it, and we'll get back to you. And then you go spend, I, you know, we, I've made many proposals in my life, five to ten hours making a proper proposal, right? If you do it with ChatGPT, it's gonna look like you did it with ChatGPT, like a real proposal that takes in the problems, and you make a proposal.

[00:31:48] And that takes you 10 hours. And they never had any intentionality to do anything with that proposal other than get you off the call or to shop it. Right? And you have failed to protect [00:32:00] yourself in that situation. Nobody's paid you to do it and now you've got another 5 or 10 hours work to see what's really there.

[00:32:05] So if you structure that conversation, which, so if somebody says to me, so go ahead, say hey why don't you send me a proposal.

[00:32:12] Allan: Go ahead and send me a proposal.

[00:32:15] Oren: What should I put in it? Like, Allan, we're busy. Like, I'm happy to write a contract, right? But what am I going to go do? Like, take this conversation and then put a bunch of terms in there we've never talked about? Tell me what to write up in a term sheet. I will write a term sheet with those five or seven terms, with the numbers that we talk about.

[00:32:43] You can mark them up, comment on them, wherever. Once we get hard lock, I'll put those in an agreement. if we're in agreement on that, then we'll turn it into a contract. What the hell do you think we're doing here? Like, I understand why you want to, but let me tell you how the world [00:33:00] works in our industry today, Allan.

[00:33:02] The guys who do not have any business, sit around all day making proposals. I have zero time to make your proposal. what are you even talking, like you're with me right now. I love you. you have all of my attention like I don't give a shit about you, right? But I love you as well. Okay in that you are number 37.

[00:33:21] You don't understand I have a hundred and sixty eight of these calls to make and you're number 30, but I'm here with you now fully present I'm giving you all my love. I'll give you my heart, you know, we can spend our time together in real Honest transparent communication. I'll give you all of that But if we can't get anywhere that makes sense, I'm pop smoke and I got to go to number 38.

[00:33:44] Allan: Well, a lot of times send me a proposal or I'll think about that or whatever is just essentially go away. And I mean, you defining the rules of the game saying, when someone asks me for a proposal, I'll say, look, we just don't do proposals. You're either like what you heard or you're in or you're out.

[00:33:59] [00:34:00] Either way is fine. So setting the rules of the game.

[00:34:03] Oren: that the challenge is you can move into some environments where that's how they buy. So I agree with you, but some, you know, corporate America, they have a process. Right. So they do need a proposal at some point.

[00:34:17] So I think there's some framing there in some, corporate environments was like, yes, no problem.

[00:34:22] You can get a proposal, right? Once you convince me that I should sit with my admin, my paralegal and spend five hours writing this up. What do I put in it? when I know you're gonna rubber stamp it, I will invest in the work. But if you're asking me on this.

[00:34:40] Soft conversation we're having to put another five hours into you, you have lost your mind. I am nowhere near that. then for framing, I would say, listen, man, Allan, you have a problem, This call finishes. We decided not to do anything together. No proposal. You keep your problem. I do not have your problem.

[00:34:57] You have it. In fact, the reason we don't [00:35:00] have that problem because we spend our lives making that problem go away. So, Allan, not only do you have this problem, you have it in a bad form of the problem. And if it gets any worse, I'm not even interested in solving it for money. Right? So, you're talking right now to the one person, maybe in the world, who knows how to solve this problem like quickly, affordably, and will actually do it for you. And what are you doing? Right. You're wearing a mask. You're playing games. You're saying he's in a proposal. Like, why? Why are you doing that?

[00:35:37] What is, Allan, what is going on with you? You can tell me. I'm okay. You could just say, whatever it is. I accept you. Right? Just take off the mask and tell me what is really going on.

[00:35:50] Allan: yeah, the other thing that I'll say to people who are squeamish about this sort of stuff where, Hey, this is manipulation. This is all of that. You can frame those words. You can [00:36:00] call it as being manipulative, or you can frame it being influential. You can say he's stubborn, or you can say he's determined, or you can say he's arrogant, or he's confident, or he's obsessed, or he's passionate.

[00:36:11] So whole thing is to look at the words either positively or negatively, but look at it as a tool, right? Just like I can use a hammer. to build you something, or I can use a hammer to harm you in the same way we can use influence or manipulation or whatever you want to call it in a positive or negative way.

[00:36:30] And so intention matters a lot, right? What's my intention? Is my intention to cheat you, to harm you, to do whatever, or is my intention to get you from a worse condition to a better condition? I want to solve your problem.

[00:36:43] Oren: for somebody who would think about this as manipulation would like to sort of express to you where frame control ends up. So people will say to me. Or, you know, our sales people or business development people or investor relations people. Okay, yes, we want to do it. Alright? [00:37:00] And then, I will say, No.

[00:37:04] It's just, Yes, I want to do it. Oh, okay, we're gonna do it. Like, that is fucking nothing. Alright? Just go away. Right? So that's not manipulation. That is, I don't believe you. What I need to hear from you in order for me to take my company, my resources, my time and apply it on like, I am not going to work harder on your business than you will.

[00:37:33] And when you're like, yeah, let's do it. I'm like, I don't believe you're gonna work hard. I believe you just want me to come in with no effort on your part to fix all of your problems, and I'm not going to do it. What I want to hear is, Hey Oren, I love you. This is amazing. I'm so glad we have the opportunity to work together.

[00:37:52] Right? This is a log carry. You carry your side of the log. I'll carry our side of the log. And we're gonna get through Navy [00:38:00] Buds together. That, I want to hear, I'm excited about this, and I love you. But yeah, let's do it. I think the work is too hard. I think the relationship requires too much energy to get together.

[00:38:13] And I want to see you express to me, Did you really believe in ourselves as a team to go tackle this and telling somebody that is not manipulative? And here's the word that is the center of all of this truth. I am looking for the truth of what they really want to do. And I am looking for a forward signal that we're actually going to be successful together.

[00:38:47] And that is not manipulative. That is looking to peel back the onion, de mask, get some transparent and honest conversation [00:39:00] between people that are embarking on a difficult adventure together, even if it's selling the TV. The TV has to be paid for, it has to be delivered, it has to be accepted, it has to be plugged in correctly, you know, whatever the case is.

[00:39:13] I am guiding the conversation until the actual truth lays down. In between the both of us. And that is not manipulation. That is continue structuring, not allowing you know, half truths, miscommunication, vagueness, and lack of intentionality to exist in the relationship. That is non manipulation.

[00:39:36] That is stripping away The things that mess up good relationships, good business.

[00:39:42] Allan: Tell me how do you approach a situation where Everything's good, but you're butting heads on price. So price is you know, I'm at a thousand, you're at whatever, or a million, you're at 1. 2 million or whatever. We, that's it. Like we're

[00:39:58] Oren: So this is really [00:40:00] interesting. So this is how I was classically trained on price. So go ahead and ask me, how much is it?

[00:40:05] Allan: How much is it? Yeah.

[00:40:14] Oren: somewhere in between there is this sort of unhappy place in which we mutually are mutually unhappy.

[00:40:22] Okay. Here's what I promise you. Right? It's not 500, 000, right? But if you think it's 320, 000, you've lost your mind. So somewhere between there is like the reality. What's your reorder size? You know, what is your credit? What does the contract look like? How easy are you to work? Like, there's a lot of components that go into it.

[00:40:44] But I can give you the bookends. It's somewhere between 410, 000 and 460, 000. If those numbers scare the poop out of you, there's no point in us trying to figure it out. But here's what I promise you. When we finally kind of [00:41:00] lift up the card and look at the number, you know, over a beer or on Zoom or whatever, right?

[00:41:06] After working together and ground and pounding this out, here's what I promise you. You're gonna go. That's what I thought it was gonna be. There won't be any surprises. Let's work on it. That's how it's classically trained on price. All right. Culturally, price is different in different cultures, different in Indian culture.

[00:41:31] I think we talked about this is a little bit. It's different in Israeli culture in America. America and Australia are very rich countries like price is not our final objective. What our clients are looking for is speed and certainty. And they're like, we can afford pay for certainty that the problem is going to go away, you know, or that the solution will be delivered.

[00:41:56] And if we can get it fast, we're not so worried about [00:42:00] price, right? Other cultures have less opportunity for business, right? They're very focused on an absolute price. So I think it, it is also how you deal with it is, uh, you know, on a deal with India and you know, and they start to work on a partnership, but they're very focused on price.

[00:42:21] So they're not really like what they think is a partnership. Is that, they ship the product, we pay it on time, and it delivers on time. Like, to them, that's a partnership, right? To us, it's like supplier vendor. And so partnership means different things in different cultures. I think price, to me, is a

[00:42:45] you know, price is going to be a function of certainty on both sides. Right. So if you're certain the contract is going to happen and a normal contract period is six weeks to sign it. I think in every [00:43:00] business in America, you go, Hey, for the high certainty of signing it today and the saving of time, I'm willing to relax on price, So as you run all this frame control, the more difficult the client becomes, right? The literally the price goes higher because we go, if we're going to take a client. So, I think for me, price is around certainty on both sides of the formula. Is that helpful?

[00:43:26] Allan: It is Warren Buffett says price is what you pay, value is what you get. And so I have this little diagram in my book, this price to value gap, and the wider that gap is like if the value is up here and the price is down here, it's a. So it's not a bad idea. Everyone wants a better deal. Now how most people try to widen that gap is by lowering price.

[00:43:47] Right? but there are four major levers I've seen that really can help you widen that gap. You mentioned one of them speed. So can you do it faster? You mentioned another one which is risk. Can we eliminate risk? [00:44:00] The risk of this going sideways. Another one is ease. How easy can we make this? How smooth can we make this?

[00:44:07] Oren: And the other thing is removing side effects. So are there negative side effects to this doing this deal or buying this product or whatever else? So if we can. increase speed, make it easier, remove risk remove side effects, then we increase the value of what it is that we do and we can keep price steady or we can even increase price and still have a really great deal for the buyer.

[00:44:30] So I want to

[00:44:32] Oren: share with you an observation That I have. I'm not sure it's in, you know, any books or anything like that. I haven't written about it. Moving off of your price can be a very strong signal to people that this is not normal. so having a price, holding the price and not negotiating against yourself is a very strong signal to some buyers, especially in the higher end of the market, that this is a normal process.[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] If you start running a not normal process, they get spooked by the process. Not by the, you know, change in value. So, for example, if you're selling a security, right, and you say, hey, I'll give you a different price on this security. It's pretty clear that you're not allowed to do that, and that's complicated, and it opens up regulatory risk, and somebody's like, ooh, I don't want exposure to the change price of the security.

[00:45:29] This is not a normal process. I'll give you another example of it in, at least in the world that I live in. So in an agreement between two parties is too unusual, is nonstandard. Give an example is an anti dilution clause, which says no matter how much of the company we sell, I cannot go below 10%. It doesn't really exist in our legal system. So if that goes in front of a judge, they're going to go, yeah, that's not a thing, right?

[00:45:54] The anti delusion clause is out. So in many cases, when you try and get creative with the [00:46:00] deal, it will get thrown out. If it goes to court, it will get thrown out when it goes into corporate. So by acting not normal. And offering a discount or offering other terms, you flag signals of weakness or people just go this is not a normal process.

[00:46:16] And it goes back to speed, certainty, side effects, right? if I buy a car in a not normal process, right? Then, I don't know, like, what happens if I get in an accident? What happens if my wife is driving it? What happens if I get pulled over, right? I want to pay more. I just buy it from a dealer and get the right paperwork.

[00:46:34] If the deal is like, hey, I can take that 10, 000 off, but you can't register it for 90 days, I'm more likely just to drop out of the whole deal.

[00:46:41] Allan: Totally. And definitely signals weakness. I mean, so many times I've been a buyer and the person will start negotiating down their price and I haven't even mentioned price. I haven't even asked for a discount. I haven't asked for and, and I'm like,

[00:46:55] Oren: So it's very disconcerting. I think when you start negotiating [00:47:00] against yourself.

[00:47:01] For

[00:47:01] Allan: yes.

[00:47:02] Oren: They're like, where is the bottom, right? Like, I don't have to do anything. So you train them. I don't have to do anything and the price will go down. Like, hey, I have a magic price reduction machine.

[00:47:11] Not talking.

[00:47:12] Allan: Well, it also signals, and you talk about this in your book, neediness as well. I'm like, hang on, is uh, am I like the only person who's interested in buying this thing and whatever it is? And it definitely, you know, price is much, much more than just supply and demand. It's a signal. It tells a lot about you.

[00:47:30] It tells about a lot about your product and your certainty and your confidence around your pricing. I

[00:47:35] Oren: I feel like, and this can sound confusing, if you're raising money and you go to a meeting, the first words out of your mouth should be, we don't need any money. Now you have to make that true, but it is true, right? You don't need anything. There's no law that says you have to take view. We can just close the business, right? you know, we don't need any money. I know, you know, quite a few startups that, [00:48:00] you know, person raised 5 million.

[00:48:02] They tried their business plan. They got 2 million into it. They're like, this is not going to work, right? Microsoft already does this. And they do it better than we're ever going to do it. Hey, investors, we're going to give the money that we have left over back, and let's live to fight another day. Right?

[00:48:16] So there, there are, you know, businesses that are in situations. I think the first thing you say is we don't need any money. I can continue, you know, we can run the business smaller. I can continue to put money in myself. so that is the heart of neediness, which is, you know, if we are seeking, you know, 5 million of capital to fund the business, the word seeking then immediately assigns control to the other party, right?

[00:48:43] Hey, we do not need any capital. We are certainly talking to capital partners. And I'll tell you what we're trying to do really is we're trying to upgrade the capital partners we have. Small business. We've got some high interest notes that we'd like to recap, but they're fine.

[00:48:57] We can live with them. you know, we have some small [00:49:00] investors that are difficult to manage that, you know, if we could recap them out. So if we can top grade the money that we have, we would do it. Otherwise we'll just continue on the plan we have.

[00:49:11] If you represent a better quality partner than we already have, hey, we would top grade to you, take care of the people we have, and boom, it would be a success. If you're a lower quality partner than we already have, then this would be a very short meeting. I'm here to explore, you know, where you fit in the food chain.

[00:49:26] Allan: love it. Oren um, is there anything I, I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?

[00:49:32] Oren: I mean, on this, subject, I think the big thing is, this is my style, because I am in the octagon.

[00:49:41] Allan: Hmm.

[00:49:42] Oren: with people who punch hard, throw elbows, and will choke you out.

[00:49:47] And so, this is how I have to spend my days, you know, talking to those folk, and I ground and pound.

[00:49:52] But I get it. Like, maybe you run a coffee shop, and you're trying to get a better price on creamer. Right, and your creamer [00:50:00] guy, who runs a farm, has a family, nice guy, you know, he's in your community, you know, you're gonna be like, Hey Lewis, let me tell you something, right?

[00:50:07] I see your truck pulling up here, right? If you park in Handicap one more time, I'm gonna fucking blow you out and order from Cisco. Like, I get it, like, and I have those people in my life. I am giving you the most extreme version. Because I deal with Silicon Valley, Manhattan, Goldman Sachs, and those guys are smart, they have lots of money, and they will, kill you and drink your blood from a mug made out of your skull.

[00:50:33] but the good point is I learned this stuff there. But you can apply it you know, with the milk creamer guy, and just go, Hey, you know, so the human part of this works. No matter what, you know, it just for me, it comes with this level of expressiveness, But you can do it in the softest, kindest, simplest way possible.

[00:50:59] Allan: [00:51:00] How would you do it with the milk creamer guy?

[00:51:02] Oren: Well, what is my objective,

[00:51:04] Allan: I need, I'll need a better price on creamer.

[00:51:06] Oren: It's a bit tough because I'm with small business. It's hard for me. I want to do this, but just a different example because when it comes to small business people and you know, like I just pay the extra. I have the money, I want people to be happy, I have no joy in making, you know, a farmer reduce his price.

[00:51:22] So I need like a situation more that I can weigh into let me find an example sure. You know, so, we did the floors in this facility. Did you see the floors when they were

[00:51:32] Allan: I did. I did. Yeah.

[00:51:33] Oren: Yeah, okay, so the floors are done, you know, they were.

[00:51:35] I don't know, like 60, 000. So it's a lot of money for the floors and it's a, you know, it's a small firm. I can't murder them, right? you know, there's a few people that do it. But I'm not gonna come in and like, you know, I don't want them to murder. So, so I go, listen, guys. you know, I understand it's 10 a square foot, right?

[00:51:56] And that's a fair price. But you would have to do [00:52:00] like nine garages,

[00:52:02] To equal here. And the reality is, I know that this is going to be on your website, on your Instagram, and probably you should be paying me to do these floors here, because this is really going to be your marketing for the next two years. So I get it, like 10 is like, Hey, you're doing Mrs. Jones garage, right?

[00:52:24] You're going to take a photo of it. You're going to make your, you know, 30 percent margin or anything, but this is like your first big corporate client. Let's find something. Is really gonna take into account that this job on Instagram is gonna suck in clients for the next three years.

[00:52:45] What Is that really worth you?

[00:52:47] Let's find something that's fair. I'm just looking for parity, given the opportunity that we're giving you guys. Soften up a little bit, and then let's find it. So, you know, that's [00:53:00] frame control. That's status. That's all things we talk about. I think, you know, done in a friendly way

[00:53:08] Allan: talk about the moral frame being the most sort of powerful frame, isn't it?

[00:53:13] Oren: And if I'm on the other side of that, what I go is, listen, hey Oren, we see this all the time. Big companies throw their weight around, you know, cause they have a big contract because they can. you don't want us to give you a discount price cause you want us to be around. If something goes wrong, you want us to be able to come back and fix it.

[00:53:31] Right? You want us to have insurance for our labor. You want our labor, you know, to be able to not have to have a second job. So they come in, you know, fresh, slept the night, had a night with their family. So like, what do you want? You want like a strip mine deal that doesn't pay insurance, labor's tired, using their, you know, people who they just hired yesterday?

[00:53:51] Or you want a real company that makes money and can afford So that, that would have got me back up to 10.

[00:53:58] Allan: Nice.[00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Oren: Right? you know, and then I would have to come back for that. But it's, you could do it very friendly and very cleanly and you don't have to be aggressive at all.

[00:54:07] But I can tell you if you get in with people, you know, who mainly pitch anything, you know, is for people who are going into these very aggressive environments and don't have the tools to deal with it. That's why you're hearing this voice. When you go into Bank of America, they do this every single day at a big level.

[00:54:26] You're doing it one time they, you know, they will pulverize you unless you come, you have the tools that they have. And that's what most of this is for. But please don't take advantage of the floor guy and the dairy creamer.

[00:54:40] Allan: Okay. I'll be nice to the dairy creamer guy and the floor guy on that. Thank you, Oren. You've been very generous with your time. Thank you for being such a gracious host when I was in town as well. Had a

[00:54:52] Oren: Oh. We look forward to seeing you again. You always have a home here. You don't have to tell us you're coming. If I walk in, you're sitting there doing a podcast, make [00:55:00] me super happy.

[00:55:01] Allan: Amazing. Thank you, Oren.

[00:55:02] ​

‍