How to Make Friends as an Adult with Nick Gray

Nick Gray: It is hard to make new friends as we get older. And what you said, where we're kind of friends with the same people, that's okay too. I'm interested and excited to help people think about how their lives could be bigger by having a bigger network, whether it's of acquaintances or friends, or just new relationships.

Allan Dib: Welcome Nick.

You are the author of the two Hour, cocktail Party. And, it's a book that gives you a structured approach to running a party, especially making new friends as an adult, which is what attracted me to it.

Because when I look at most of my friends group, it's people who've I've made in high school. And it's kind of weird because, we became friends because maybe we like the same ice cream flavor. And 30 years later we're still best friends. And I don't know about you, but certainly I know myself and many others, have a lot of trouble making friends as an adult.

And why is that? And how do we overcome that?

Nick Gray: there was a study that says that we find out about the best new opportunities, and that means [00:01:00] new customers, new partners, new investors, new employees. We find those people not through our very best friends, but through our network of loose connections.

And I have found that all big relationships start at the phase of acquaintance.

And so I have had success in my life and I've taught others how to build their network of acquaintances. And then I think friendships come out of that.You know, I'm not as good at teaching people how to go deep and how to find your best friend and how to do that, but I can tell you how to build this network of a lot of acquaintances and then it'll be up to you to figure out, Hey, who do I want to go and get to know better?

And I think that those things do happen naturally once you get through the awkward acquaintance phase. Do you know what I mean?

I do know what you mean. I feel like, as an adult, it's like, even building some of the acquaintances is kind of difficult. I mean, you meet someone at an [00:02:00] event or through a friend of a friend and maybe you even meet 'em a few times, but to have someone who you might call a best friend or a very close friend or whatever, I mean, it takes a different level,to do that.

You need to spend time together, all of that sort of thing. And as an adult, I think one of the blockers, at least for me, I mean, I don't have children, so a lot of people will get together and have a children's party or whatever, or involve families and all of that. And like, most of the people I meet either have children or they're gonna have children or that sort of thing.

So. how important is like having a common lifestyle or are there what ways around that you are, because you've got some unusual methods. I've been following you for a while. So one of the things, I think, I saw you write about was you take people to the airport, right? So if they're town, you'll drive them to the airport or whatever.

I thought that's really cool. you get to spend, some one-on-one time in a car. And,that's a very unique idea. But,what are the biggest blockers that you've found? Because I look at someone, like you and like you are the polar opposite to someone like me.

you look like [00:03:00] the life of the party. You've got, like, I'm looking at your party pro, website at the moment where, just you're hosting millions of parties and having an amazing time and, I wanna know what the secret is.

Dude, you know what's funny is it's really hard for me to go to somebody else's party. I love to host my own parties. I kinda love to be the center of attention or where I get to control the layout and the agenda and the guest list. Attending parties for me can be a little bit harder 'cause I like name tags.

I like introductions, I like structure to my gatherings. So I'll try to talk about that a little bit, but I wanted to acknowledge, 'cause you said that you don't have kids and how many of your friends have kids? And so they're so occupied. I'm going through that phase in my life now where I too don't have kids and a lot of my friends are starting to have kids and their life naturally shifts around that.

Yeah.

I'm reminded, I hosted an event during the weekday, a few months [00:04:00] ago, and it was on like a Wednesday from one to 5:00 PM sort of like a business mastermind or something. And I invited my friend Aaron to come to the event and he said, look, all the stuff that we learned, he said, that was awesome. That was amazing.

But I was more interested in meeting people who can schedule a four hour time block on a Wednesday afternoon to essentially take off of work because his schedule was so flexible and dynamic. He's like, I just don't know that many people who have that type of a flexible schedule. So for him that was really interesting was meeting those types of people.

Is that sort of what you're asking? Which is, Hey, I am wanting to make friends with other people. I've found that my life is generally more unique because I don't have kids because my schedule's different than those who do have kids or my interests. I'm just not gonna talk about school and teachers and

Allan Dib: That's exactly it. Yeah. So schedule is one thing. So, look, I've got a buddy who lives a [00:05:00] couple of streets from me and we frequently catch up for a walk and talk or a coffee or whatever, but, even though he is a couple of streets down, we've gotta schedule it like three weeks in advance because he is got, take the kids here.

all of that sort of thing. So scheduling is definitely one thing. And then, kids are their life for the most part, for most parents, especially newer parents. And so, in terms of what's what you've got in common, it gets less and less.

So, those are a couple of the challenges for sure.

Overcoming Networking Barriers and Hosting Tips

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Nick Gray: One thing I talk about in my book is the importance of adults having adult time. And this is so easy for me to say as somebody who doesn't have kids, right?

But a lot of people ask, oh, I'm hosting a party. I wanna meet and connect with other adults in my neighborhood, in my community, whatever.

Should we allow kids to be there? And I've heard from other parents, they say the problem that when you have and allow parents to bring their kids is they're never really fully present in the conversation.

Allan Dib: Mm.

Nick Gray: Because they're always got one eye [00:06:00] on you and the other eye to make sure the kids don't maim themselves or create sort of bodily harm.

So I tell people, I say, well, one way to do that is that if you want to be a good host to make childcare easy and for the parents a way that you could do that, and you know it does take a little bit of work, but would be to hire some childcare for your event or to plan a simultaneous kid party at your house in a different room.

Maybe it's a movie night with snacks and popcorn and other things for the kids, or a game night or hiring help to allow it for those friends to bring their kids to make it easier.

The other thing that I find is that when you can give parents advanced notice. And tell them, we talk about this in my book called The Party Runway, where you want to give people at least two or three weeks notice of your event.

It makes it easier for the parents to schedule their own childcare to make plans. what busy people struggle with is, the Monday invitation to a Thursday night [00:07:00] party and Thursday night, by the way, is a not an ideal night in my mind to host a party. I actually like for people to host on Tuesday and Wednesday nights because those are less socially competitive, right?

they're easier for people to say yes to and to pop in. I also tend to host my events a little bit earlier than most. Now I do six to 8:00 PM in New York City. I did seven to 9:00 PM 'cause things went a little bit later there. But I host my events a little bit earlier and there's also that two hour time window.

So it's pretty tight. There's a start time and an end

Allan Dib: Yeah. So tell me about that. Why the two hour time window? Why not, Hey, come over in six and stay as long as you like. and we'll finish it there. what was the thinking behind that?

Nick Gray: One of the big thinkings is the idea to have what I call the awkward zone, to be as compressed as possible. And the awkward zone is that first 30 minutes to an hour where really not everybody shows up. they're casually late, and they show up with this rolling start time. And when you do an event with a 6:00 PM start time, [00:08:00] people might think, oh my gosh, is this party going until 10?

Well, I can't show up right at six. I'll show up at seven or maybe eight if I'm running late. When you let people know both the start time and an end time, it compresses the awkward zone to get more people to show up on time. And I can say, I've tested this in many different cultures and communities around the world, and when you tell people both that there's a start time and an end time and that there's a little bit of an agenda or a plan for the night, I.

A lot of people show up on time. In fact, it's one of the things I hear from new hosts how surprised they are that so many people show up close to the start time compared to when they don't use those techniques. And it's this rolling start of, whenever people come. but also because we host on a Tuesday, Wednesday night, you want to let people know this is not a crazy party, right?

This is not a stay all night drink. A lot of alcohol, get intoxicated. It's more of a mixer of a happy hour type environment. Easy to say yes to.

now I'm gonna flip the question back on you. [00:09:00] What are the type of people who you would want to connect with if you were thinking about new people?

'cause you live in Melbourne, right?

Allan Dib: I do. I live in Melbourne, so I live in Melbourne. But, another challenge for me is I live sort of, on the, a little bit outside of the central part of Melbourne. So I live about an hour out, by the beach. beautiful place to live, but it's mostly retirees or people who've got a beach house.

So, that's an extra challenge for me as well. So, I mean, I've been thinking of everything from, hey, do I just, rent or buy an, apartment in the city as well? Like for weekends or for hosting or for whatever. So that's something I've been thinking or do I develop something in the local community?

I started a little bit of a cold plunge group, because I mean, we've got the bay and in Melbourne, the water is freezing, so, we did that on Sunday mornings for a while, but it's kind of died off a little bit.

sometimes, one person would be away and then another person wouldn't show up, and then we wouldn't see each other for like a month or whatever. and now it's [00:10:00] summer anyway, but I'm thinking of getting back on track with that, but what would you do in my situation where you're a little bit out, out of the kind of central zone and, let's face it, you're an awkward tech dude who's like, I'm the awkward guy standing in the corner and like, Hey Nick, what do you do?

Nick Gray: Uhhuh. That's so funny. That's so funny too because seeing you online and so much success that your book and your audience has had that There are, I do meet a lot of creators and entrepreneurs who are very, socially skilled and savvy and great at marketing or writing or other things. But in those social experiences I find that they do appreciate and like a bit of structure.

And when I talk about structure, what I mean is. For example, name tags, to know people's names to help make it easier. Or a round of introductions to know who's at the gathering and to give you a conversational crutch to go up and chat and meet somebody new. Hey, I heard [00:11:00] that you have a podcast. So do I.

I'd love to say hello, my name's Alan. so what would I do for your situation? Well, the first thing I would ask is, are you wanting to meet people in your neighborhood to join the cold plunge, or are you wanting to meet other, what I would say, high performing individuals.

Allan Dib: I mean, sure I would love to meet, high performing individuals, but I wanna meet interesting people, who are doing something interesting or have some interesting stories and, have conversations.

So it's not necessarily that I want to create a business networking group because I, I've been part of those and I'm invited to those sorts of things,pretty often. But, have a bit of a peer group of. Interesting people, right? So who I can, associate with, we can do stuff together or whatever.

I'm thinking of joining actually there. when I was in America, I played pickleball for a little bit and there, there's a local pickleball group. now. So I think I'm gonna join that.

Nick Gray: That's pretty cool. Is it starting to become very popular there in

Allan Dib: Oh, I wouldn't say starting to [00:12:00] become very popular. I pretty much have to explain it to most people have not heard of it. I'm like,I was talking to my friend David the other day, said, we should join the local pickleball group. Go like, what's pickleball? And so, have to explain it. but yeah, I'm getting into American backyard games.

So pickle ball. I bought a cornhole board for my backyard and that's been a real hit for when I've had people over. 'cause we'll,some people will be swimming in the pool or whatever, but in between like a little bit of cornhole or whatever. So I thought that's been really good.

So I've been importing all the American, backyard games.

Nick Gray: That's awesome. That's great. I like that. I, so let me ask you one more question. I have an idea on what I would do and I'll give you my advice, but first I want to ask, when's the last time that you hosted at your home? Or , do you have what I would call a warm list in your current area?

You said you're about an hour outside of Melbourne. Do you host, sort of actively, would you be able to get, let's say, 20 people to come [00:13:00] over on a Tuesday or Wednesday night now? Or is that something that you're looking to build and to develop? I.

Allan Dib: I think I struggled to get 20 people. I mean, I know tons of people, but the logistics of getting everybody all the way over here on a single night,like I think of my best friend who lives on the other side of town, and he's always like, today we've got a wedding tomorrow we've got a birthday party, then my cousin is getting married, then this person died, or whatever it is.

Like, he's got a huge social circle, and there's a lot of people who've obviously got children and then they're doing stuff. So, definitely some, I dunno about 20, I think definitely. Get 10 maybe, or,so, yeah.

Nick Gray: So here's my advice. Here's what I would do. Knowing that it's a little bit harder to get 20 people and that you live an hour outside of the city, and that probably the most number of your contacts live closer to downtown or more central,

Allan Dib: =

Yes.

Nick Gray: what I would do is I would ask your best friend or [00:14:00] somebody else that you could think, it'll take you a little while to think about who's the right fit, but find somebody who could be your co-host who's a little closer to the city, and to ask them and say, Hey, I read this book.

It's called the Two Hour Cocktail Party. Just say, Hey, I want to host a happy hour. can I do it at your place?

Allan Dib: That's

Nick Gray: And thatcan be a little intimidating, right, to ask them. But I have found that many people want to host more,

fact, they get these houses or apartments with the intent of hosting, and then life comes up and they never actually end up hosting as much as they.

Really planned on. And so one of the easiest things that you could do is to centralize and say, Hey, for me to build up a list of warm contacts, I'm going to host in Melbourne starting. Maybe I'll do 1, 2, 3 events over the next six months and find a co-host, somebody that would allow you to do it at their place. You would need to ideally be responsible [00:15:00] for the food and the drink to make it easy for them so that you just have to show up. And bring that stuff and run the event and make sure everybody comes follow my book for that. And they provide the venue. Now, their role as a co-host is pretty much in name and duty only.

You're gonna be doing most of the

but they'll be giving the venue and that'll make it easier for people to say yes, to come to a two hour happy hour on a Tuesday or Wednesday night. The reason that I say to do it at their home instead of at a bar or something is that the experience of going to a happy hour in someone's home is really special and it's a little bit magical.

It's very vulnerable, and it takes it away from the idea of a networking event or a really formal thing to a more personal level. So hosting at home is very important. If you absolutely were violently opposed to that idea, then the suggestion that I recommend to people is that say, well, okay, you could host a [00:16:00] meetup at a hotel lobby or bar.

And I've done this myself when I'm traveling. I think I even did it in Melbourne when I was visiting many years ago, to host at a Hotel lobby bar. The reason is that hotel lobby bars number one on Tuesday, Wednesday night, they're way less crowded than

the popular. You know, What you don't wanna do is to host something like this at the most popular hips, coolest place, because then it's too crowded.

The logistics, the parking, you have to wait in line to order your drinks. It's just, it's too hard. But a hotel lobby is meant for transients. They won't be shocked if you show up with 15 or 20 people. You can have a little happy hour, but really the best thing to do would be to host at somebody's house.

What do you think about that? Would that work

for this? I like that idea. And I mean, I've got friends who'd be very open to that. so a lot of my friends are completely opposite to me. Like, my best friend, he's a super connector. Like, he will meet the waitress who's serving us and [00:17:00] then. Three months later, he's told me he's, friends with her.

Allan Dib: he's sent her another job opportunity or whatever, and I'm like, what is happening? Like, you know, we met her for 30 seconds while she gave us sushi somewhere. and yeah, definitely, it's a different personality style, I think, I can't remember, I read the book and,

the phrase he used is they collect people like that is like their thing, right?

some people collect, whatever, collectibles or whatever they collect people. And he's definitely one of those,

Nick Gray: Which I love that phrase. That's actually what I tell people of how their mindset should be as they go through life to think about collecting people. And the easiest way to collect people is to be able to invite them to something. Many times we may meet an interesting person at an event. Maybe you meet them online, you see them on Twitter or something, and you notice they're in the same town.

It can be a bit of a jump to say, Hey, let's meet up for coffee, right? For why they're busy. Are you trying to sell them something? You're both very busy. [00:18:00] But I found that everybody wants to be invited to a party. Everybody wants to be invited to something by one of these hosts or connectors. And so when you start to host parties, when you do them, for example, once a quarter.

You'll go through almost every social interaction through the lens of, do I want to talk to this person again? If, yes, let me invite them to one of my next events.

And that's a very easy way to build and maintain those relationships, that network of acquaintances.

Allan Dib: okay, what about getting beyond, like, Itried your trick of like offering an airport run or whatever a couple of times and predictably, it, it fell on deaf ears and,I'm not surprised. I'mdid it wrong. I'm not, saying the strategy is bad, but, I knew someone who was in town for a keynote.

They didn't know me. I sh shot them an email and like, yeah, of course. I mean, some random dude from the internet offers you a lift to the airport. Of course you're gonna ignore that. so where did I go wrong? How could I have made that work better? Or [00:19:00] is it just for people you already know and are warm with?

Or like, how does that work?

Nick Gray: I would say I've had the most success with airport pickups instead of airport drop offs, and one of the reasons is that. With a pickup, you know exactly what time your flight's gonna land. You're new into town, you're going to a specific place, your hotel, and I've specifically had success with airport pickups when I've engaged with someone before online.

So I will comment on their posts leading up to them coming to town. My first reach out won't be, Hey, would you like an airport pickup? Instead, I'm commenting, I'm retweeting, I'm liking their posts, I'm engaging with them in the time leading up. And then when I see that they're coming to town, then that's the next step you know, the airport, pickup is meant to replace the, Hey, can I meet you up for coffee while you're here in town?

It's meant to feel value additive instead as opposed to, Hey, let's meet up for coffee when they're already so busy. Right? This is [00:20:00] just an easy way to kind of connect. So those are the times that I've had success with. That is when I've engaged with them and have, they know me a little bit 'cause they've seen me in their mentions or replies and commented on LinkedIn or something like that.

And then when they come to town, then I reach out and make that offer. What we're looking to do is just to create these opportunities to add value to them before we ask for anything in return. the airport pickups, frankly though, it's a bit of a more advanced move

and I would suggest instead that you start with the idea of just hosting a happy hour. 'cause you probably have a lot of acquaintances or people you haven't spoken to in many years that are in Melbourne.

Allan Dib: True.

Nick Gray: And so I would instead say something like, Hey, I'm just hosting a happy hour.

I know all these interesting people in Melbourne. I'm thinking of hosting a happy hour on, Tuesday, March 7th, six to 8:00 PM around this neighborhood. If I do it, would you come and you'd text that or send it as a DM or LinkedIn message or whatever to about [00:21:00] 10 people. And your goal is to try to get five yeses.

And if you get those five yeses, then you're off to the races. Now you can look for a venue, try to ask a friend if they'd be willing to host, and then, start to actually, collect RSVPs and then you invite the wider group. I found that the right number for a happy hour, the right number of people was about 16 to 22.

Allan Dib: So

is a happy hour the same as your two hour cocktail party, or is that something

Nick Gray: yes,

yes, the same thing. I use those phrases interchangeably. A happy hour, a housewarming party, a meetup, a two hour cocktail party. They're all the same format, which is a two hour gathering on a Tuesday or Wednesday evening. That has name tags and a round of introductions to help people mix and mingle.

And it's largely a collection of your random network. So you're mixing buckets from your life. It's not all from, let's [00:22:00] say, your rock climbing

group. It's new people from different areas of your life, and that's the value additive benefit to those that attend. That's why these parties work and why they're so successful, because the attendees get to meet a lot of new and interesting people

Allan Dib: And how often do you do this? So like, let's say you did one, like what would you do? One, every quarter, every month? Or like what's the cadence and do you have the same people? Do you have different people? I.

Nick Gray: in general. I say about once a quarter, there's this guy Lewis though, who, who just moved to Phoenix about a year ago and he said, wow, building a network is so important to me. I'm starting my business. I want to have friends here. So he was hosting almost every month. And I've talked to people like that and they have a lot of success, but it's not for everybody, frankly.

That's a lot of work. You are inviting new people. So I use this phrase that I tell people, I say, Hey, there's new people every time. So there's not the expectation that you'll be guaranteed invited to the next one. I would say that I invite about half new people [00:23:00] and half repeat guests to each of the gatherings that I host.

So, for example, for myself, I'm hosting next week on Monday night. Probably half of them will have never been to one of my events before, and half have been to one. They know sort of what to expect.

Allan Dib: That's cool. And, so obviously with your structured approach, it's pretty easy. Like you've got activities, you've got icebreakers, you've got all of that sort of stuff. That's pretty unusual though, for a party. Normally there's little gatherings, you're around the bar or whatever.

And I think you asked me when we first spoke where I came across your book, and I'm pretty sure it was through a post by Ramit Sethi. I think I'd first seen where he talked about your museum hack business and I'm pretty sure later on he had mentioned your book or your method or something like that.

So

Nick Gray: Super smart guy.

Allan Dib: super smart guy. But, he's kind of very much into systemizing things too, isn't he?

Nick Gray: he's really into systems. I haven't spoken to him much over the last few years, but he's a genius when it comes to his areas and [00:24:00] systems and thinking about investing. I know a lot of people have had their lives changed by him.

Allan Dib: Yeah. I mean, he even had a whole bunch of stuff outside of finance and investing I think that's why I started reading some of his stuff. He's like, this is how he's kind of started a conversation, or this is the place to be at a bar if you are at a, an event or whatever.

And I can't remember if that was his own content or whether he was, summarizing somebody else's content or whatever. But that's sort of what got my attention there. And that, I think that's where I,discovered you and then, yeah.

Nick Gray: it's, it's really good. There's a lot of things in life that we can be more intentional about. And, we started this by saying, man, it's hard to meet people and it's hard to. Make relationships and connections as we get older, and especially as people are less social, they move to the suburbs, they have kids, it's harder for them to make time for those moments.

And yet no one's actually taught us how to do that. No one's actually sat down and say, Hey, in your forties, here's how [00:25:00] to create these connections and here's how to make these relationships. So I spent years experimenting with different formats of gathering. Dinner parties, cocktail parties, happy hours, meetups, breakfasts, museum gatherings, all these different things that I hosted. And I found that the easiest thing that I could teach somebody was I could say, look, it's very hard for me to tell you who you're gonna want to be best friends with, and it's hard for me to figure out what that person wants and things like that. But what I have gotten to be good at is taking someone from sort of a stranger.

To coming into your world and becoming an acquaintance, and at that acquaintance phase is the best time to try to create the relationship. So an example would be that if there's someone who I really want to be friends with and I really want to get to know, then I would first invite them to one of my gatherings to show them that I'm a good person to know that I'm interesting, that I host good [00:26:00] events.

Because the thing is, to meet interesting people, you have to do interesting things.

Allan Dib: That's

Nick Gray: hosting a party or a gathering is one of the fastest, easiest ways I found to be truly interesting.

,did you come up with this, the two hour frame? Because it's a highly structured framework, which I love, I love frameworks, I love highly structured methods. did you come up with that as a result of experimenting with different ways to connect in different ways to host and that was sort of what worked for you the best?

Nick Gray: That's what I found was the easiest formula that I could teach others and I found that two hour gathering was the thing that gave me like 80% of the success with 20% of the results.

And it was what really got me the most bang for the book, and that I was able to teach people how to do similarly and successfully. Because there's a lot of books out there like Martha Stewart style here in America that can show you how to host a dinner party with [00:27:00] decorations and incredible food and all this.

But the reality is that, well, number one, that may not be your style, but number two, it's like the, what's the ROI on that type of experience? Cocktail parties are these two hour cocktail parties I found you can do for less than a hundred dollars in cost, and they give you the chance to connect with roughly 15 to 20 people that in the same time, it takes you to watch a movie on Netflix.

Now you can build relationships with a large number of people and then big things come out of that,

Allan Dib: And outside of the two hour framework, let's say you are invited to somebody else's event. what are your best insights and tips for connecting there? Be going beyond, Hey Nick, so what do you do and where do you live and how long have you lived in Austin? And you get to that awkward pause and well, all right, well, nice to meet you.

Nick Gray: right? One piece of advice that I have for introverts or shy people is to show up [00:28:00] on time for the party not to show up late. It can be very easy to say, oh, I'll show up an hour late. I don't even know if I want to go, I feel a little shy. I don't wanna show up. But actually that does you a disservice when you show up on time.

Number one, you get a little more time with the host 'cause the host isn't swamped with all these people.

Arriving Early: The Benefits and Tips

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Nick Gray: So you actually get to be there with the host and you might even get them be able to help out and to help at the beginning, which is a way for you to add value to the gathering. The second reason to show up on time is that you'll get to see the party sort of create and evolve around you when you're one of the first people to arrive.

Now other people are coming into your space.

It can be very intimidating to walk into a room where all these conversations are happening and you don't know who to talk to.

As opposed to if you go there on time, you're one of the first to arrive. Other people are now coming into your world. And now you get to have the confidence of seeing them arrive, welcoming [00:29:00] them, saying hello, things like that.

Some other tips that you could do. Well, I'm thinking back on Saturday, I had lunch with a woman named Sally Hogshead who wrote a book about how to be more fascinating

and the advice and sort of the tips that she has about stories and things like that. One thing that she said was a really good question that you can ask someone.

The power of that, that if you ask someone a really good question, it makes them feel smarter. It makes them feel like they get to shine. And so many times I think about what questions I can ask people.

She said when she's driving with an Uber driver, she will sometimes ask, Hey, what are the non-obvious things that I can do or that I might do as a passenger, which would cause me to get a lesser rating? And I said, wow, I never thought about that question before. And so she's always thinking about these types of questions [00:30:00] that she can ask that she's genuinely curious about, but that also maybe the other person hasn't heard before or something like that. So I like that type of question. If I meet somebody from a different industry right, saying, Hey, what's something about your industry that most people don't know?

It's hard to manufacture those conversations though I'm not so good at that.

Allan Dib: think that's a good insight. I mean, the quality of your questions will probably determine the quality of your conversation. It's yeah,

Nick Gray: Yeah, just

being genuinely curious.

Allan Dib: I love that.

The Impact of Writing a Book

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Allan Dib: what's been the impact of the book? So, I mean, you had a lot of this information, I think prior to the book, like in blog posts and newsletters and things like that.

what's been the impact of the book and having it in book form?

Nick Gray: It is been huge. I'm here in Austin where I'm based. I go to and attend a lot of parties now that have name tags and rounds of introductions. I'm hearing from other people that they go to a party that has name tags and rounds of introductions. Adding structure like that [00:31:00] has certainly helped and spread so much more now that I have a book and that I have a mission that I'm trying to show people on a new operating system or a new way of gathering when you have people from different social groups. Now you don't need name tags if you're doing a family reunion where everybody knows each other. But truth be told, I don't even know some of the names of my cousins, so I probably still want to have the name tags or their spouses. I would definitely want to have name tags there. but if you're hosting a gathering for your cold plunge group where it's only five or six people and you guys all know each other, you've been going to it for months, you probably don't need to use this formula.

But if you're hosting a gathering with five people from cold plunge, five of your neighbors, five people that work in marketing and five other random people you've met, then you definitely want to add this structure. So doing that book has really helped me to share this operating system to more people.

And I'm on a mission to get 500 what I call verified hosts. [00:32:00] I'm getting pretty close. I think I'm at 440 or so, which is amazing. And there've been many more parties that have been hosted as a result of my book. But those are the ones I've heard from.

I get the selfie, I have the date and the city and the location that they hosted, so that's nice.

What happens after the 500?

I don't know, I'm focused on that to get to the 500. I'll think about what I wanna do next, whether it's probably, maybe think about starting something new. I've been hosting these half day conferences that are really exciting. They're deeper, longer gatherings, so I'm thinking and playing in that space.

For now though, I'm really enjoying the space of talking to hosts, coming on podcasts like this, talking about parties and gatherings. I love that.

Allan Dib: That's so cool. And just a little bit of your background, 'cause you're a super interesting guy.

Revolutionizing Museum Tours

---

Allan Dib: Like, we barely touched on that, but, you started a museum tour company, right? Which was kind of not the usual boring museum tours. tell me about that.

Nick Gray: I started a company called Museum [00:33:00] Hack, and I actually got to come down to Melbourne. I was on your national TV network for some news interview. I spoke at one of the big museums there. They hosted a conference and I got to travel all around the world thinking about how to attract new audiences to these museums that at times or five or 10 years ago, were struggling with admissions from younger people. I started doing these Renegade Museum tours in New York City. Ju Yeah, it was just out of a hobby, really, just something I did for

Allan Dib: So was that with the museum's blessing or did you collaborate with the museum or did you show up with a group of people?

Nick Gray: It was totally illegal at first. It was totally not vetted or approved by the museum. And it was underground, and I think that's what made it special and unique that I didn't work for the museum. I don't have an art history background. I just self-taught. it was really a passion project that ultimately turned into a multimillion dollar business, and it started [00:34:00] from me just really wanting to do a good experience for my friends and people I wanted to meet,

Allan Dib: And so if you don't know anything about, whatever, like, did you what in intentionally research each thing or like, what was it like,

Nick Gray:

intensely is a strong word, but I would watch YouTube videos or look up articles on Wikipedia. I try to talk to the curators, do the official museum tours. I was self-taught. I'd read books, just, I really did it as a hobby to learn the fun facts and the juicy gossip about art inside of these major museums.

So we started at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and then grew as we built it into a business to over six different cities, I think.

Allan Dib: and in six different cities, do you had other tour guides doing it or you still did it in the other cities?

Nick Gray: Yes, we had other tour guides. That was actually one of the hardest parts, is hiring some other

people to

fit this type of culture.

but yeah, that was really what was special was that I didn't hire museum tour guides. I hated [00:35:00] hired museum tour guides of the worst. I would wanna hire people that were standup comedians, or Broadway actors or science teachers, people that were really good at engaging and storytelling. And then I could teach them about the art and the museum.

Allan Dib: and so you'd run these tours, so I mean, I'm assuming you advertised them somewhere or like, how did you get the word out about these underground, museum tours?

Nick Gray: I wish I could say it was an overnight success, but I worked on it for about two years, building really a great experience, and then it started to spread via word of mouth when it was truly this magical thing people would tell their friends and share it on social media. We got really nice reviews on TripAdvisor and Yelp and Google.

Those reviews really helped to drive the word of mouth, and ultimately where we made a business out of it was in selling those amazing nighttime museum experiences. Taking that [00:36:00] same product, changing it a little bit, and selling it to businesses and corporations as a team building tour or team building experience.

Allan Dib: That's cool.

Nick Gray: And that was really the success that unlocked, that allowed us to grow and hire a lot more people

Allan Dib: And so the corporate groups would take people at night through the museum

Nick Gray: at night and during the day. The daytime was really what saved us because, we could sell the nighttime tours to tourists and locals, but then what do my guides do during the day? They have to find other work or something. So by selling to the businesses, it really allowed us to give more full-time work to some of our tour guides, because they could do daytime tours on a Wednesday afternoon at the Met Museum.

Allan Dib: That's cool. And so what was specifically different? So I know you wasn't sponsored by the museum or whatever, but, like what was different about it versus, a normal tour? I,

Nick Gray: So a normal tour is a free tour that's led by a volunteer that normally follows some art history narrative. [00:37:00] I wouldn't say that they're particularly, exciting or engaging volunteers. There are some that are great and I'm thankful for them, but a lot of the time it's just, it's more informative.

And I'd say that we led with entertainment first and foremost. We

thought

really before you can. Inform people, you have to entertain them. And so we would start with the jokes and the juicy gossip and these crazy stories about these little pieces inside the museum. And then we'd show them the highlights and the big things.

But it really was fast paced. on most museum tours, maybe you see five or six objects over an hour. On ours it'd be two hours and maybe you'd see 10, 15, 20 objects covering many different areas of the museum. Very fast paced, very interactive, a lot of q and a games, photo challenges, things like that

Allan Dib:

what kind of games and photo challenges? , I'm trying to figure out what you do in a museum.

Nick Gray: so a good game would be that if we went into the modern and contemporary [00:38:00] galleries, we would play, buy, steal, or burn. So that's an example where you say, Hey, find one of these paintings and tell me would you wanna buy it? 'cause you love it so much. I. Do you wanna steal it? 'cause you're just like obsessed with it?

Or do you wanna burn it 'cause you hate it, and tell us why. And so little sort of engagement things, these are not miracles. I didn't invent these ideas. Museum educators had been doing these things to engage younger audiences for a while. But I think I kind of commercialized it and brought in really high quality talent to lead those tours and then productized it for people who said, look, the only thing right now available is a free tour.

I'm willing to pay for something more, something special. And we made that easy.

Allan Dib: I love that by putting a twist on something, even you can charge for something that's being done for free. so That's so cool.

I love that. in terms of your book, what were your goals for the book? what are you hoping will be the results? I know you, you were trying [00:39:00] to hit the 500 and sounds like you're not too far off that longer term.

What was the idea behind the book and where do you wanna go from here?

Nick Gray: , really, I wanted to write the book because I was tired of going to events where I just didn't feel like I was meeting the type of people I wanted or having the types of relationships and connections that I was interested in. And so my goal sort of overall is to have more people hosting parties with a little bit of structure.

last year I went to a holiday party, with a girlfriend and there were a lot of interesting people in the room. And we'd been at the party for about an hour and I said, Hey, is the host gonna, make a speech or do a round of intros or anything? And she just looked at me like I was crazy.

She said, no. Why would he do that? I said, well, 'cause there's all these people here. I wanna know who's in the room. I wanna meet some people. She said, oh, it's. It's just up to you. You go up, you can meet anybody you want. I said, oh, well, I'm [00:40:00] only one. What am I gonna have? 50 different conver? I wanna know who's in the room.

So having a little bit of structure. That's my long-term goal, is that whenever there's a room of mixed company from different social groups and gatherings to try to get the host to add a little bit of structure to make it easier for new conversations and connections to occur. That's my like, overarching goal that I want.

Allan Dib: It makes all the difference. Like I went to an event in Sydney yesterday I mean it was partially a social event, partially a business event. But the host,he did a great job of putting structure to it, to having little ice breakers, to having, how do we find out who's who?

And even prior to the event, he sent a PDF file of everyone's profile, everyone's LinkedIn, everyone what they do, all of that sort of thing. So you came, knowing who was going to be there, you already had a little bit of information. You could be like, oh, hey Nick, you're the museum guy.

So that was really helpful. I kind of saw elements of your, to our cocktail party there, even though it it was an event with [00:41:00] speakers. I,spoke and a few other people spoke as well, but it was very structured, very on time. It was like, wasn't kind of sloppy.

Like a lot of these events off often are going over time or,

Nick Gray: yes,

Allan Dib: I love that.

I saw that, really probably one of the first times I've seen that, really well structured and he's, from a background of being a school teacher, so he was like, all right guys, we are coming here back at two o'clock. And so it was good.

Nick Gray: fantastic fan. how many people attended and what time was the event?

Allan Dib: so the event ran from 9:00 AM till about 5:00 PM and then after that we went and got some dinner. and there were five speakers, I think in total, including myself. Speakers were given 20 minutes. Exactly. Then we did little, ice breakers. So for example, one of them was where, you had 20 minutes, you, got big sheets of paper, you had crayons.

And he, what skills do you have? What skills do you want? And what are your hidden skills? And then we'd pin them up across the room and then everyone would [00:42:00] walk around the room and put their name next to someone who's got a skill that you want or you've got a skill that you can help them with if they've got a desired skill.

So that, that was kind of cool. And you.

Nick Gray: I love that.

Allan Dib: Yeah, it was really good. His name is Omar Zen home. He's,got a big podcast, a hundred dollars MBA and he recently, exited a business webinar Ninja, which was a SaaS business. So, he's a cool guy and he's,he's actually doing,I dunno if he's inspired by you or not, but, he wants to expand his circle of, friends.

So he's hosting these events where you go on a ski trip together in New Zealand or whatever, that sort of thing. So unfortunately, I can't make the one that he's hosting this year. I'm gonna be in Nashville at the time, and last year I had a death in the family where, so I've missed him two years in a row, but they sound amazing.

he's a super sharp guy and he's being intentional about, creating friends. I think that's,really cool.

Nick Gray: And that's a key phrase that you just said. He's being intentional about it. There's a woman named Priya [00:43:00] Parker, who wrote a book called The Art of Gathering, and she talks a lot about thinking what our intentions are. And many people host a party, oh, I just want to see my friends and get people together.

And that might be their intention, but that when it comes time for the party, they just don't do anything. They just say, well, I'll just throw everybody in the room and they'll just meet each other. And so taking one little next step to do what Omar did with rounds of intros, some icebreakers, helping to add that structure is really what I'm advocating for.

And especially with top performers that might frankly just be so laser focused. They're doing incredible things in worker and business, but they're not exceptionally outgoing and extroverted. But you wanna find them at these events and connect with

them and create

a relationship. they need the structure for those people too.

There's this YouTube creator that I know whose name is Max, and he has, a young kid. He is only 20 years old and he has millions of [00:44:00] followers and he is so good on YouTube. But in social situations, he loves the structure. He's a very thinker type guy, you can set them up with people, say, max, you gotta talk to this person.

He's great in those moments. But if you were to leave him to just go up and introduce and Hey, how you doing? That's not him. Right? That's not who he is as a person. And so I've found even success that very high performers love a little bit of structure, and it helps make these gatherings a little more productive.

Allan Dib: Yeah, I love it. And another exercise he had, which I thought was excellent. It was like guys,we were sitting in sort of groups of four, people and said, all right, the people at your tape, and I think he'd pretty intentionally seated people together who didn't really know each other.

'cause I mean, some people knew each other or came together or whatever, and he's like, all right, 15 minutes you tell the, your group of four what you're working on and what you need help on. And instead of the other people saying, oh yeah, hey, you should read this [00:45:00] book, or You should check out this YouTube, or whatever, actually help them, like, introduce them to someone they want or help them in some way or whatever.

So, I'm releasing my book on May 7th, my new book. And obviously I said, look, hey, I want to get on high profile podcasts. I want to get the word out and, instantly, oh, I know this guy. I know the guy who runs that podcast. I'll send him a message right now and see if we can get you on or whatever.

and vice versa. I,one of the guys there is an expert at, YouTube ads and I'm like, oh, I know a guy who needs YouTube ads. I'll send him a message right now. So it was really good in terms of, it wasn't just like, Hey, this is what you can do and here off you go. Do it yourself. It's like, Hey, actually help them like right now.

That was

Nick Gray: Hmm,

that's great that it's very specific. so can I ask you for your advice? You've had so much success with your book. Is there any advice that you have for me with my book to help me reach and share this message to a larger audience? I.

Allan Dib: Yeah, So there's things that [00:46:00] are intrinsic to the book, and then there are things sort of outside of the book, right? I'll tell you the stuff that doesn't move the needle, at least in, in my experience and in the experience of the authors that I connect with regularly.

So traditional pr. General, like even mentions in great, publications and like an ink or whatever, generally have not moved the needle very much and you'll spend a lot of time and energy on all of that. guesting on podcasts. for some reason podcast listeners seem to be readers as well. So, and also I think that translates to the audio books as well very easily.

Ads on Amazon, they definitely, move books. and I think of Amazon as a search engine, right? I mean, you've already launched your book, but prior to launching your book, I would've had the conversation with you what are the key words that people are gonna be searching for?

So, and obviously have that in the title, have that in the subtitle, have that in the description. So some of that you can kind of modify now. I mean, you can modify the description on your Amazon listing [00:47:00] and so on. But Amazon's essentially search engine and they have paid ads platform. I haven't.

Had much success with paid ads on platforms outside of Amazon. So like sending Google ads or Facebook ads or those sorts of things because, uh,there's an obvious disconnect. They've gotta click, they've gotta go through the checkout process, whereas people on Amazon are already searching for books, The third strategy is having people, have a list of what I call cousin authors. So people who have a very similar message to me, very similar audience to me. and, we exchange, we do webinars together. We will mail for each other if someone's got a book release and things like that. So, for example, for me.

Mike Michalowicz is,someone we consider a cousin, author, Donald Miller, Gino Wickman Traction. So people have got a very similar audience and a very similar message. So doing those kind of emails for each other or webinars together, something that we're doing together. Mike Michalowicz has had a lot of success with, this [00:48:00] is where you are running a co-webinar The three, like, so if you've got three of you who are kind of cousin authors, you run a webinar, you each email all of your lists and get a lot of people there, and you give a lot of value. And then, at the end, you ask people, Hey, would you mind order? And people, feel like flooded with value and they want to reciprocate.

So people will buy a copy or multiple copies or whatever. So that. works really well. social media shout outs, if you've got people who've got similar audience. Gotta be relevant, it's gotta be similar. they're the things I've found that have moved the needle the most, and I've tried a lot of different things.

Nick Gray: you've certainly been successful at it. I'm excited for your new book too.

Allan Dib: I'm excited to be sharing it. and then really, if anyone's listening, there are things intrinsic to the book that are gonna, I mean, obviously writing a good book that people will share, that seems obvious. and I've analyzed a lot of the top selling nonfiction books.

it's not the writing, it's not the cover, it's not even the title. To some [00:49:00] extent. The title is super important, but it's the big idea behind it. Like if you think about it, like. A four hour work week. Wow. that's a big idea. changing your life by just tidying up. Right? That's a big idea. being able to compete in, un uncom competed markets with a,blue ocean strategy or whatever.

So having a big idea behind what you do and then communicating that big idea succinctly in, in your title, where it's very obvious what that means. So that would be kind of intrinsic elements in it.

Nick Gray: How did you think about it with your last book, with what people were searching for? Is there a search term that people are looking

Allan Dib: Yeah. Look, unsurprisingly, the main search terms that we get found for is marketing and marketing plan. And both of those are words in the thing. the big idea behind my last book was, Hey, you can do a marketing plan in a single page. Right? when people read the title, you want the reaction to be, I want that, four hour week work week.

Oh wow. I want [00:50:00] that. life changing magic for tidying up. I want that. how to win friends and influence people. I want that. so you want that, kind of where it's obvious what it is. You don't really have to explain it. And people are like, ah, I want that. and often the, I want that is, is often a big idea or a twist on a big idea.

Like, rich Dad, poor Dad, what the rich teach their children that the poor don't. Oh, wow. I want in on that. I want to know that,

Nick Gray: It's something I've thought about with my book that, nobody wakes up in the morning and says, what I want is to learn how to host a cocktail party. Nobody's waking up deciding that what they want is the more relationships, the new friends, the connections, and this book is the way to get there.

But nobody's actively searching for how to host a party, so for me, that's a little bit of an uphill battle.

Allan Dib: Yeah. If I'd seen a book called How to Make Friends as an Adult, I'd be like, I want that. Um,the cocktail party had I not known about, you prior [00:51:00] to that, like a cocktail party in my mind, and maybe it's just me, it's like people in fancy suits drinking martinis.

I would never have associated that with making friends as an adult.

Nick Gray: It's making

me think that I should write an article of exactly what you said, how to make friends as an adult that has all the details and all the key ideas and sort of concepts from my book, and use that stuff that I say, Hey, to meet interesting people, you gotta do interesting things.

The easiest way I've found to do that is to host a good event. I'll teach you exactly how

Allan Dib: I love that. a lot of what I teach in marketing is that clarity beats cleverness every time. Like, so many times someone will use a clever headline or a clever little pun, or , a clever phrase or whatever, and it's confusing. And anytime that you can reduce the amount of calories someone needs to use to figure out what you do, that's, gonna be far better off.

Always go for clarity over cleverness. So that's a big turning point for [00:52:00] a lot of people especially when they get into marketing mode, they get into professional mode, academic mode. Like you read what they write and then if you met them in person, they're a funny, interesting person.

They talk casually, but when they write, this weird academic professional sounding stuff and it

Nick Gray: Clarity

over cleverness every time. I like that.

Allan Dib: clarity over cleverness, right as you talk. So that would be another one. yeah, but you've written an awesome book. I really like it. Very short, very easy to get through, very entertaining.

So, I highly recommend it to everybody. We'll have a link, as part of the show notes.

Thank you, Nick. You've been very generous with your time. I really appreciate it and I really appreciate connecting with you. You actually did something very unusual where you have your cell number on your blog and you're like, Hey, call me anytime.

And I'm like, this is weird, calling some random dude off the internet. But I did

Nick Gray: I'm so

glad we did too. I love those phone calls. That was great.

Allan Dib: that's really cool. Thank you, Nick. Appreciate it.

Nick Gray: Thanks Allan.

​[00:53:00]

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