The Guide to “Common Sense” Marketing: Simplifying Complexities with Simon Bowen

Episode 46 Simon Bowen
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[00:00:26] Introduction to Common Sense Solutions
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[00:00:26] Simon: The reality is that the customer is not looking for the most complex or commoditized solution. They're looking for the most common sense solution

[00:00:39] Simon: Because when it's, makes common sense, the customer all of a sudden can go, well, that'll work and that'll work for me.

[00:00:48] Simon: So, all right, then let's go. And so, you know, when we turn these complex, commoditized conversations, individual models, [00:01:00] the people we're trying to build alignment with go, oh, well that makes sense. what does something have to make sense? It has to have common sense, yet common sense is far from common and even less so in the business world.

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[00:01:20] Meet Simon Bowen: Simplifying Complex Concepts
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[00:01:20] Allan: Welcome to the Lean Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Allan Dib. Today, I've got a guest, Simon Bowen. Now whenever I introduce myself to someone and they know I'm from Australia, they're like, oh, you must know Simon. And to be honest, I only just met Simon very briefly at an event. I've known of Simon for many, many years.

[00:01:40] Allan: I've known of his work, I've known of his results, but I only met Simon very briefly. We chatted for a little bit and, you know, I was at another event and someone said, oh, yeah I worked with Simon. And I'm like, okay, well, what, what, what did he do for you? He goes, well, you know, he, he took all these complicated concepts and help us simplify it and help us put [00:02:00] together an offer.

[00:02:00] Allan: And to be honest I still couldn't get exactly what it is that Simon Bowen does. So I've got Simon Bowen with me. Simon, who are you? What do you do? Who do you do it for? And why are you such a big deal?

[00:02:15] Simon: Ah. It's very kind. Thank you. And it is unusual, isn't it, when Australians meet other Australians and they've been in each other's orbit for years, but we almost always seem to meet overseas, right? We, We never meet here, which is fascinating.

[00:02:33] The Power of Visual Models in Business
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[00:02:33] Simon: A lot of years ago I realized I had a capacity to capture really complex concepts into simple but powerful visual models that explain that complex concept across almost any subject matter.

[00:02:52] Simon: And there are reasons why there are sort of psychology reasons why visual models. I'm talking, you know, two by two [00:03:00] matrices, Venn diagrams and things like that. Work so well to communicate for people and we'll, we can get into some of that as we unpack this. And I've traditionally worked in consulting across all areas of organizational performance, so organizational design and structure change management, leadership, strategic planning, performance management, and sales enablement basically.

[00:03:23] Simon: And then we made a decision to dial right in on marketing and sales enablement. And the number one issue companies have in the marketplace is getting the market to understand the unique value or genius they bring to the table

[00:03:36] Simon: In a way that has the customer almost disregarding the price.

[00:03:41] Simon: And, we've slipped into a world of commoditized and complex thinking,

[00:03:47] Simon: And so people pick up all the marketing language and chat. GPT is just, exacerbating this even further. You know, we pick up all of the marketing language, which actually is commoditized language, and we try to use it to explain [00:04:00] our value.

[00:04:02] Simon: Or we complicate what we're explaining to people thinking that it will make us sound more intelligent and therefore they'll wanna buy from us. The reality is that the customer is not looking for the most complex or commoditized solution. They're looking for the most common sense solution

[00:04:22] Simon: Because when it's, when it makes common sense, the customer all of a sudden can go, well, that'll work and that'll work for me.

[00:04:30] Simon: So, all right, then let's go. The problem is, my father used to say common sense is uncommon.

[00:04:37] Allan: Yes.

[00:04:38] Simon: And so the idea of common sense, expressions of value is uncommon. So we're not trying to get to the lowest common denominator. We're trying to get to the deepest common denominator. And if I just draw this for you if that's okay.

[00:04:56] Simon: If we think about this really as [00:05:00] a simple iceberg, we've got this commoditized language at the top of the iceberg up here. And this is really transactional,

[00:05:11] Allan: So when you say commoditized language, do you mean overcomplex language

[00:05:16] Simon: no, not o not over complex, but commoditized, right? So what is commoditized? If you're a financial planner and you are telling people you're gonna give them financial freedom, completely commoditized

[00:05:26] Allan: Right.

[00:05:27] Simon: because everybody says

[00:05:28] Allan: Everybody's saying it.

[00:05:29] Simon: And what the hell does it even mean?

[00:05:31] Allan: Yeah.

[00:05:32] Simon: Right? You don't ever get financial freedom. Why don't you, if you have enough money that you can do whatever you like in life, you have a problem with the tax department

[00:05:45] Allan: Yeah.

[00:05:46] Simon: and regulators,

[00:05:47] Allan: Yeah.

[00:05:48] Simon: right? And everyone else that's coming at you because you're wealthy,

[00:05:51] Allan: Yep.

[00:05:52] Simon: You know, other value propositions scale if you're a business owner and we're gonna show you [00:06:00] how to scale your business.

[00:06:01] Simon: Completely commoditized. 'cause everybody uses it. And in fact, it's so commoditized. People interpret growth and scale is the same thing. And visually they're really different

[00:06:12] Simon: so, just digression, if this is result over time, this is growth

[00:06:19] Allan: Yes.

[00:06:20] Simon: incremental step by step. This is scale.

[00:06:26] Simon: You have a period of foundation when all of a sudden you fit past the tipping point and you get disproportionate results from increasingly smaller effort, right?

[00:06:38] Simon: Whereas on the growth scale, the effort always has to match the result constantly. And so, as you grow, I need to put more people in. As we grow, we need to put more technology and with scale as we grow, we don't need to put the same proportion of resource into this to make it happen. But scale's a commoditized turn.

[00:06:56] Simon: You know, in the health and weight [00:07:00] loss industry, you know, we have terms like you know, reconnect to your true self, you know, and all this, like they're completely commoditized. And they become meaningless because they've been overused and abused, right? And. You know, chat spits out that kind of content, quite frankly,

[00:07:21] Common Sense in Financial Planning
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[00:07:21] Allan: So in your example of the financial planner, instead of financial freedom what would he be using?

[00:07:27] Simon: So, well let's come to that. This stuff at the top basically is shallow. So all of the commoditized language is shallow conversation. And so if you think about an iceberg, you can throw as much wind and storm at the tip of the iceberg as you want. The iceberg's always moving in the direction of the base,

[00:07:47] Allan: Yes.

[00:07:48] Simon: right?

[00:07:48] Simon: So, financial planner says, you know, I can help you get financial freedom. Initially, they'll go, well that sounds cool, but they also know that's kind of a shallow conversation. 'cause it's also what every other financial [00:08:00] planner says. Commoditize, right? And then usually what happens is in order to try and add some sort of differentiation.

[00:08:08] Simon: To this commoditized language. We get into complexity and we start saying to people, well, here's what we do, here's what it takes. This is, you know, it's very complex. Only a financial planner could help you with this. So you'd best hire us because if you want financial freedom, commoditized language, you need, someone can execute a complex solution.

[00:08:32] Simon: Then we need to you know, get to the surface below. you know, imagine you are sitting in a boat at the top of the water looking at the iceberg, and it's pretty cool.

[00:08:42] Simon: But as you get near to the iceberg, you can see the hue of the iceberg below the water and you really would love to know what it looks like at that next level. And you can't even see what is right at the base. Right? And so if they had a way of putting some, you know, scuba gear on you to [00:09:00] get you to go down, you might see this level below, which is an outcome.

[00:09:06] Simon: So, now they can't just shove your head under the water and say, take a look at this 'cause you'll fight back, which is basically what we're doing to people when we market and sell to them through complex language. We're basically saying, I'm just gonna shove your head under the water so you can see all the clever stuff.

[00:09:22] Simon: And we fight back against it 'cause we can't breathe and it's scary and everything else. So we actually need to have a way of showing them outcome.

[00:09:31] Simon: So the financial planner who's offering financial freedom, which is a completely commoditized dialogue now needs to figure out what is the real outcome that their client is looking for, that is kind of hidden by this commoditized and complex concept of financial freedom. They want certainty.

[00:09:55] Simon: They wanna know when they get to retirement, there'll be plenty of money there to live the life they wanna [00:10:00] live.

[00:10:00] Simon: I'm not sure they want freedom. that's a highfalutin concept. But they want certainty

[00:10:05] Simon: When I get to retirement.

[00:10:07] Allan: Yes.

[00:10:08] Simon: Do they want freedom or do they want options? You know, so we can travel, we could change the house if we wanted to.

[00:10:18] Simon: We can buy a new car every three or five years. But I don't know if I want financial freedom. I've lived a good life. I've done, okay. I'm not a multi multimillionaire, but I really want options in retirement. I want certainty and I want options.

[00:10:30] Simon: And then, you know, the third thing, often people will talk about legacy.

[00:10:35] Simon: I wanna leave a legacy. What do you leave your children and you know, what's gonna happen to your wealth when you die?

[00:10:42] Simon: Now preserve the wealth could actually mean I want certainty around lifestyle. I want options. How do I take care of that? But the next level down, which is a hidden level, we don't really talk about this. If the top level is transactional, [00:11:00] which it actually is, the middle level is transformational,

[00:11:07] Simon: the bottom level is timeless,

[00:11:12] Simon: which basically means kind of in my language.

[00:11:16] Simon: What's the most common sense solution you want for your wealth management while you're building wealth? And then while you are using the wealth in retirement, what's the most common sense solution you want from a financial planner,

[00:11:34] Simon: Right? Let me ask you the question, Allan, now that you're looking at this model,

[00:11:40] Simon: so if all of those things are all in the mix. What is the most common sense benefit you want to get from working with a financial planner?

[00:11:51] Allan: For me I, would want someone who's. Proactively, you know, taking care of my wealth, who's not gonna take, you know, crazy risks or [00:12:00] whatever. And who's probably got a proven track record, really. Those are things that would come up. And I a hundred percent agree with you that from a messaging point of view, you want to go from cleverness to clarity, right?

[00:12:12] Allan: Financial freedom is kind of clever, like, but it's not necessarily clear. But yeah,

[00:12:17] Simon: So someone who's got a great track record, they're gonna take care of your wealth they're gonna take unnecessary risks. What does all that mean for you? Just in a common sense kind of way? I.

[00:12:29] Allan: I guess the word that comes to mind would be like a fiduciary. So somebody who's really or a caretaker.

[00:12:36] Simon: Ah, okay. So, the most common sense value that a financial planner might actually end up going to the market with is, I've totally got your back

[00:12:47] Allan: Yeah.

[00:12:48] Simon: when it comes to wealth. I've got your back. But no one talks like that,

[00:12:52] Simon: You know, but like anyone that hires a financial planner, why are they actually hiring them?

[00:12:58] Simon: Right? [00:13:00] And in reality it's because they don't trust themselves.

[00:13:03] Allan: Yeah.

[00:13:04] Simon: I'm hiring a financial planner 'cause I don't trust myself. Why? Well, 'cause I don't have the knowledge I. Well, you could learn the knowledge. Yeah, I could. I don't have the time to learn the knowledge. Okay. Well you could prioritize differently if this is important to you.

[00:13:19] Simon: Yeah. Well, you know what? There's other things that are more important to me than my long-term financial future as evidenced by how I'm prioritizing my time. So I want somebody else who's gonna prioritize it for me and do it on my behalf. Right. Okay. So you don't wanna prioritize this in order to learn it.

[00:13:38] Simon: You don't trust yourself currently with your level of knowledge. Anything else? I probably don't have the discipline I need

[00:13:45] Simon: To make sure I don't overspend, you know, in the first half of life, and that I do actually have some mechanisms that I put my money to. Okay. So you want someone to watch your patterns of behavior.

[00:13:57] Simon: Yeah. And raise the red flag when you are not behaving [00:14:00] appropriately when it comes to your long-term wealth creation. Is that right? Well, yeah, probably. I don't really wanna admit it, but yeah, prob okay. So you actually want someone who will take responsibility for you?

[00:14:11] Simon: Oh, that's a bit blunt.

[00:14:12] Simon: Yeah. But that's what you've just told me. you can't prioritize to put the time into this because there's other things that are more important to you. You don't know enough to get it right. So you can't prioritize the time to learn it. You don't trust yourself to make the right decisions.

[00:14:26] Simon: And secretly, deep down in the dark moments, you know, you're not disciplined enough to pull this off yourself over time. That's why products like insurance exist. No one would need insurance if they self-insured and put the money aside,

[00:14:40] Allan: True.

[00:14:40] Simon: but no one ever does. Right. So you kind of don't trust yourself because we're all into instant gratification.

[00:14:47] Simon: So you actually want someone who's got your back. You know, who's going to manage the accountability of your money is, you know, if I do that for you as your financial planner, if I can show you the best plan, I can [00:15:00] keep you honest to the plan and I can take the accountability for you to keep watching everything to make sure that we make adjustments if we need to.

[00:15:08] Simon: Does that work for you? And they're gonna go, well, that's just about the most common sense solution I've ever heard. I think I'll buy that from you. No financial freedom mumbo jumbo and all that, like, you know, just hit the common sense solutions. And so we use model like this to teach people how to take their complex products and services and turn 'em into common sense solutions that, that the market looks at and goes, well, that's just so obvious.

[00:15:41] Simon: How come no one else has talked to me like that before? I mean, for us, the output of what we do when we simplify. And for me it's simplification, not dumbing down.

[00:15:50] Simon: You know, when we simplify, it's the most sophisticated form of communication we have. The output is when the customer says, that is actually so obvious.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Simon: How come no one else is showing me that?

[00:16:02] Allan: yeah.

[00:16:03] Simon: And yet most companies never get to that. It's not the lowest common denominator. It's the deepest common denominator. And I find a lot of companies get stuck in the superficial level thinking of commoditized marketplace language. And you know, that a few get down into the outcome level, but very few get down to this.

[00:16:24] Simon: What is the common sense solution underneath everything that you do,

[00:16:29] Simon: That you actually, you know, bring to the market. I worked with a financial planner in, he's in Dallas and. He specifically works with people that are just pre-retirement.

[00:16:40] Simon: So they're in the last five to 10 years before retirement, he usually people come to him and go, actually I'm not happy the financial planner I've got, I don't think is the right person to have through retirement. You specialize in

[00:16:53] Allan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:55] Simon: I wanna work with you. And he said, you know, I make sure people don't lose [00:17:00] money. And I'm going, okay, well how? And he goes, well, I had done all of my parents' financial planning 'cause I'm a financial planner and I did everything the industry told me to do. Commoditized thinking. Right. And then the 2008 financial crisis hit and they lost half of their retirement money. And he said, it was actually down to me because I was doing the commoditized thinking.

[00:17:23] Simon: I did everything the industry told me to. And then when I reflected on this, there was no need for them to lose that money. 'cause I could have done it differently. That would've absolutely insulated them from the crisis, but got them the same kind of growth. And I made a decision then that no one would lose money if I'm their financial planner.

[00:17:40] Simon: And so I'm just here to make sure that no one loses any of the wealth they've built you know, for retirement. But they still get growth, but they're not gonna lose the money

[00:17:53] Allan: So the message becomes a powerful story

[00:17:55] Simon: Oh, ugh. Like what if a financial planner said, I'm here to make sure you get [00:18:00] growth and you don't lose any money.

[00:18:01] Allan: Yeah.

[00:18:03] Simon: Well, that's pretty common sense. Like, what else would you be hired for? No I'm, pretty much just hired for that to make sure you get growth and you don't lose any money. Oh, okay. Well, what sort of growth will I get? You'll get the right amount of growth without losing money. But there's a formula, you know, there's a correlation.

[00:18:19] Simon: I can give you the right amount of growth without you losing any money, no matter the financial circumstances. Now that would be interesting. I would love to go back to him and have a chat to him about how that unfolds when there's a major drop in the market and all that sort of thing. But at the time when I was working with him, he had been true on that, and this was probably about 2020.

[00:18:38] Simon: So just pre covid. So, you know, he'd been doing this for 12 years at that point and was really solid on no one loses money if I'm their financial planner. They get growth and they don't lose money. It's common sense. people thinking about an issue, whether that's a problem or an opportunity, and they're working through the concepts [00:19:00] they wanna arrive at.

[00:19:03] Simon: What you're really trying to do at that level is come to a level of discovered discovered understanding and insight.

[00:19:09] Allan: Yeah.

[00:19:12] Simon: So we don't know everything we need to know at the top, but we know there's an issue. We need to work through the concepts that we have to unpack and understand, and we wanna arrive at a discovered understanding about that allows us to do something about it. Right?

[00:19:28] Allan: Do you collect data from existing clients or existing reviews or interviews or things like that? Like, for example for my book, the one page marketing plan, which is sold about a million copies worldwide. The three words I always keep hearing from reviews, from people who are writing in saying they liked it or whatever, I hear clarity, Hey, it gave me clarity around marketing.

[00:19:50] Allan: Marketing was so confusing. It gave me a simple framework and then it gave me a structured approach to marketing. You know, I now know what to do. And so [00:20:00] we use that in all of our messaging now because we've heard that back from the market. It wasn't something. That we sat down and we invented how do you go about getting to the

[00:20:08] Simon: We do track anecdotally, you know, what does this change for people, right? When we work through this, and you simplify complexity through this methodology. The second thing we invariably get is expression of value. So it's almost always the case that someone says, I've been trying to explain this for 25 years,

[00:20:29] Simon: And finally I can, right?

[00:20:31] Simon: And then the third thing is alignment. You know, when you build a model for a business. the model becomes scalable. So, you know, if we've got an issue that, you know, we're trying to unpack and we're trying to get to a discovered understanding about it over the other side, what we want is alignment. And so

[00:20:53] Simon: This is shared understanding. Now, alignment could be that [00:21:00] the customer is in alignment with what you are actually saying they need. It could be that your team or in alignment with what you say the organization does or how important it's that the organization does it.

[00:21:12] Simon: You know, the bank has to be in alignment with you.

[00:21:15] Simon: If you wanna borrow money, like they've gotta go, okay, this is a good business and you deliver something to the market. We know people are just gonna buy, you know, capital raising. Have to be in alignment with you to invest in the business.

[00:21:28] Simon: Everyone needs to go from a discovered understanding around a problem or an opportunity and reach shared alignment with the people that matter But we have this weird kind of propensity to just jump from, you know, zero to hero and hope that we can spit out words of some form

[00:21:50] Allan: Hmm.

[00:21:51] Simon: That will all of a sudden somehow get everybody aligned.

[00:21:54] Simon: Well, your words are limited by the vocabulary of the receiver. [00:22:00] Lemme say that again. The words you use to express are limited by the vocabulary of the receiver. .

[00:22:07] Simon: And if those words aren't in someone's vocabulary. you know, using words alone to reach some level of alignment. Like if I went to a business owner and said, you know, this is fantastic. I can run a daikin process to uncover the real pedagogy of what you take to market so that everybody will instantly get the key learning outcome that you wanna try and achieve with that communication.

[00:22:30] Simon: They dunno what a pedagogy is. They dunno what a dayum

[00:22:33] Simon: is. the learning outcome doesn't mean anything. The two words are understandable, it doesn't actually mean anything. So the quality of my communication is limited by the breadth and depth of their vocabulary,

[00:22:45] Allan: Mm.

[00:22:46] Simon: And that's a big deal, right? And so we realized that we could take this and turn it into a visual model so I can [00:23:00] take any kind of concept and the understanding around it.

[00:23:04] Simon: And turn it into a visual model. I read business books all the time. And then as soon as I finish the book, I draw a model to summarize the whole book in a single model. Now, if I give somebody that model to summarize the whole book, what are they gonna go back to? More often? The book or the model

[00:23:21] Allan: The model, of course.

[00:23:22] Simon: of course.

[00:23:23] Simon: 'cause the model gives us visible understanding

[00:23:28] Simon: And we use our eyes more than our ears. It's the way the human kind of species is built. You know, greater than 50% of the brain's reflex function is attached directly to the optic nerve.

[00:23:42] Simon: 83% of all of the information we bring in from the world around us comes through the optic nerve, yet we rely so heavily. On the auditory channel. Even when we give people written content, we're actually giving them content they're gonna read out in their own head, which is auditory, right? And so if we [00:24:00] create visible understanding, we get to shared understanding much faster.

[00:24:04] Simon: 'cause then we can say to people, we had this conversation, we unpack this, discovered learning. But here it is in a model. Let's step you through the model.

[00:24:12] Simon: And now this is like a blueprint for the brain. And you know, when we create this visible understanding, we get this shared understanding. And the currency of this is transparency. We can agree much more readily with what we can see than we do with what we hear.

[00:24:30] Simon: And so, you know, when we turn these complex, commoditized conversations, individual models, the people we're trying to build alignment with go, oh, well that makes sense. What, what does something have to make sense? It has to have common sense, yet common sense is far from common and even less so in the business world.

[00:24:59] Allan: [00:25:00] Yeah. I love it. And so with the visual models, presumably you would use that in your marketing, in your sales presentations, Even onboarding or, you know, showing people where they're making progress. I mean, we haven't used your model's method, but I know one of the big turning points for us in our sales process, we've got a sales team and we put together a little visual map of hey, this is what our consulting service is gonna look like.

[00:25:27] Allan: Phase one, we're gonna do this, that, and the other. Then we're gonna move into this, then we're gonna do that. And finally you're gonna end up with this. And visually showing someone a road, we call it a roadmap. Was a very powerful tool 'cause when we're selling the invisible, right?

[00:25:41] Allan: We're selling consulting, but also we found it very powerful from. a customer perspective. So someone's working with us and kind of just like those maps that you see in shopping malls where they say you are here, you know, and then this other shop is here. So showing someone that they're making progress, showing, Hey, you are here, you're at phase [00:26:00] number two.

[00:26:00] Allan: Next we're gonna move you to phase number three, where we are, we're, you know, accelerating your results or whatever else. So, We call them roadmaps, you call them models. Very powerful from a sales perspective, from a marketing perspective, but also helping people feel like they're getting a lot of progress.

[00:26:15] Simon: Oh, absolutely. Look, I well, let me address the issue of roadmap a little bit,

[00:26:20] Allan: sure.

[00:26:21] Simon: The model that we built that everyone wants is this thing called the Genius model.

[00:26:26] Allan: Okay.

[00:26:27] Simon: We can unpack the entire genius of a company in a single model that takes about seven minutes to explain.

[00:26:33] Allan: Okay.

[00:26:34] Simon: And when I mean the genius of a company, you know, a company gets set up for a purpose. And that purpose is either commercial, which means we're here to make money. And that in fact is the only self-sustaining dimension.

[00:26:50] Allan: Yeah.

[00:26:52] Simon: Or it might be cause based. We are here to make a difference. If you're cause based, but you're not commercial, you're a charity,[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Simon: you actually go have to go and ask for money.

[00:27:01] Simon: But if you do both, you're a good company. Right? And there are some companies that are just commercially focused. And then we wanna have an impact on our clients down at the

[00:27:10] Allan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:12] Simon: And we sell products and services in order to have an

[00:27:17] Simon: impact

[00:27:18] Allan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:19] Simon: We turn what we do into products and services in order to have an impact and. You know, in my past I was an organizational design consultant and so there are three pathways.

[00:27:32] Allan: before we go ahead, what's an organizational design

[00:27:34] Simon: So I would work with large companies on large scale process, re-engineering, organizational mapping structural design of the organization. What should the hierarchy look like?

[00:27:45] Simon: You know, what is the value stream that flows through the organization? The matrix organization type thinking value, you know, runs through horizontal authority, runs through the vertical, the strategic planning that drives everything. And then [00:28:00] the leadership and performance management that actually maintains the accountability so whole of organizational thinking, right?

[00:28:06] Simon: And so we run this purpose through how we organize ourselves. So these are things like standard operating procedures policies, work instructions, the hierarchy of the organization, structurally, what are the reporting lines and authority lines and everything else. And, you know, there are many models that explore that.

[00:28:28] Simon: The, one of the most common ones is the McKinsey seven s model that talks about organizational design. And obviously McKinsey put it together, but basically how you organize yourself creates consistency.

[00:28:46] Simon: And when there's consistency, the customer says we can rely on them in terms of the product or service that they offer.

[00:28:54] Simon: Right down the other side, we had culture [00:29:00] and I. Naturally enough. I have a culture model and, but culture says, oh, this organization has character. You know, the way the organization shows up is pretty great. Culture is the feature.

[00:29:17] Allan: Do you find that culture is pretty much derivative of the leader or the founder of the organization? So,

[00:29:23] Simon: Every, every time a large public company changes the CEO, the culture will shift.

[00:29:33] Allan: yes.

[00:29:34] Simon: And so one of the challenges for leaders is to figure out how to create a culture that outlasts them.

[00:29:39] Allan: Right?

[00:29:41] Simon: That's like the nirvana of culture and culture's. Kind of an overcooked industry culture turned into an industry culture and change management, right?

[00:29:48] The Role of Culture in Organizations
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[00:29:48] Simon: If you put a hundred people together, you're gonna get a culture.

[00:29:51] Simon: It's just, the question is who's choosing the culture?

[00:29:55] Simon: You put a hundred people together, they will coalesce into a culture. If it's not the culture you [00:30:00] want, you've gotta shape and mold that culture. You know, look at elite sport.

[00:30:06] Simon: The culture of the team has almost everything to do with the coach.

[00:30:10] Simon: And then, you know, the coach changes and the culture of the team starts to

[00:30:13] Allan: Yeah, totally.

[00:30:14] Simon: But culture is a feature, it's a thing. And really the output of culture is character. The benefit of a great culture is character that other people trust.

[00:30:25] Simon: They say we can trust them

[00:30:27] Simon: In terms of their efforts to provide a good quality product or service. But the gap that I kept finding Allan was can we believe them

[00:30:41] Simon: That product and service they've built is actually gonna make common sense and solve my problem? And. The currency of the purchase is not trust, it's belief. And that's counter to everything everyone's been talking about. I can trust you. You're a great guy. It doesn't mean that I believe that you can [00:31:00] solve my problem

[00:31:00] Simon: Is the currency of the purchase is belief, not trust.

[00:31:05] Simon: How do I know that you can solve my problem?

[00:31:08] Understanding Company Genius
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[00:31:08] Simon: Well, and then I discovered this thing that I call organizational genius, which usually, and I've mapped the origins of company genius, it always starts with the founder. And I built the genius model. And when we can capture company genius and we can say, this is how clever we are as a company, and almost any product we make and sell is gonna solve a problem. Oh, well I believe that because the genius you have as a company I think is robust and it makes sense. And why isn't every other company doing that, right? And so. we have these channels and company genius is almost never talked about, and yet it is at the center of everything. And the challenge is how do you scale company genius?

[00:31:57] Simon: Well, the way you scale this transition [00:32:00] is built a model that you can teach people to understand and that you can teach salespeople to walk through. And so when I think about selling, I think about three levels. I think about the mechanics. Process flow usually shows the mechanics of how we work together.

[00:32:21] Simon: So when you talk about, here's the map, what you're really describing is, here's how we work together. This is the sequence of events, right? But life is not linear

[00:32:32] Allan: True.

[00:32:33] Simon: and neither is genius. So we consciously made the genius model a model.

[00:32:37] Simon: Because that means we can jump in and out at any point based on what is going on and bring our genius to the table.

[00:32:45] Simon: And so we have the mechanics and we have the model and this bit at the top, which is where all the premium is the magic. Now the magic is usually people, [00:33:00] you know, it's usually the ability of the people to see around corners be more informed than other people, see where a trend is headed, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:33:09] Simon: Right? But the magic without a model and without mechanics usually looks like intuition.

[00:33:16] Simon: And it's really hard for a customer to buy someone else's intuition. 'cause you're basically saying, Hey, just trust me. I know,

[00:33:22] Simon: Right? What they actually need is organized genius, and in fact a pathway that says, here's how we work together.

[00:33:28] Simon: So here's how we work together. To put this genius in play so that you get a product or service that solves your problem. And so, you know, there's dimensions in all of this and we want people to be able to actually articulate really clearly what is the genius of your company.

[00:33:47]

[00:33:47] Navigating Market Dynamics
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[00:33:47] Simon: You know the world is just oscillating between boom and bust markets and there's a continuum between them [00:34:00] and there's a midpoint,

[00:34:05] Simon: a company's genius should be able to solve the customer's problem no matter the market. Right. If you have company genius, your ability to fix something should be able to solve a customer's problem, no matter the market. Right now, in a boom market, creates a buffer that allows you to take a, you know, describe what you do as a big old block at full value and shove it into the market and people will buy it. A bust market forces you to find a safe entry point for people that can come in as a wedge and then make space for the deeper, more profound value behind it to come in, right? You've got, You've gotta market and position differently in a bust market that you do in a boom market,

[00:34:53] Simon: And the market doesn't make you any smarter or any dumber.[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Simon: Your company genius is your company genius. Now, would we offer a different product up here to what we would offer down here? Probably.

[00:35:09] Simon: You know, in a bust market we might have to find a, you know, what I call a no brainer first offer that people feel safe to buy in a boom market. You know, we could go in with, the complete done for you, full cost, let's go kind of thing.

[00:35:26] Simon: but I would add to that.

[00:35:28] Simon: I need to describe, and this is the value stream analysis work. I need to be able to describe the flow of value we create as a company to put our genius into play, to solve your problem. And so I need to be able to position that according to whatever market we're in. So. Might the flow of value change a little bit?

[00:35:58] Simon: Possibly. There might be a little [00:36:00] tiny value flow at the front that we do a discovery process or something that lets people get a real sense of, well, this is gonna give me a gain now let's do the whole thing. So I, you know, the mechanics and the model matter, but has Apple been the same company since Steve Jobs died?

[00:36:20] Simon: I mean, it's a fair question.

[00:36:21] Simon: Personally, I don't think it

[00:36:22] Allan: No, it hasn't. It hasn't?

[00:36:24] Simon: What would Virgin become if Richard Branson is not there? Now I know that he's thinks about that a lot, but it's not gonna be the same,

[00:36:33] Allan: No.

[00:36:34] Simon: you know, the magic is often the person, the founder led type business. So you think about companies sort of under 10 million in revenue they have to have a human face

[00:36:45] Allan: Yeah,

[00:36:45] Simon: that people can believe, and that person often has.

[00:36:50] Simon: Some kind of genius they bring to the marketplace that then needs to be codified so that the rest of the company consistently delivers that genius. And there is a model for where [00:37:00] Company genius actually comes from.

[00:37:01] Allan: Couple, couple of things come to mind.

[00:37:03] Allan: So first of all, like a lot of the examples you've used for real utility things, so like, for example, financial services, my financial advisor, all of these, how do you think about non-com sense goods, like luxury goods, you know, where, a car could be a million dollars, right?

[00:37:20] Allan: A Rolls Royce or a Ferrari or something like that. When you're in the luxury business, it's really not about common sense anymore, right? It's a different driver that drives that. How do you think about that?

[00:37:31] Simon: Well, it's a great question and you know, sales are either tangible or intangible, and the tangible sales are easier to make because there's a physical thing that you can demonstrate. Intangible sales, so not even, you know, luxury goods. And professional services, any kind of advisory, any sort of creative, you know, you're gonna buy, you're gonna, you're gonna commission a piece of art from an artist.

[00:37:57] Simon: The intangible sales [00:38:00] really do require the provider to be able to say, we're actually really good at this. We have. Genius behind this. And it's not our intuition, It was structured, organized genius. I was pulling at all these other threads of cleverness that we already had, and I was, it's organized. There was other things we had already organized, and I used all of that to come up with that baseline that everybody else saw as revolutionary.

[00:38:30] Simon: But actually it just made common sense.

[00:38:33] Simon: And so. When you're selling an intangible product, you can't go to the market and say, you just have to trust us.

[00:38:40] Simon: We know what we're

[00:38:41] Allan: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Simon: You actually need to give them a sense of organized genius. So what you actually have to do is take your intuitive wisdom and genius, put it into a model once again, so they can look at the model and go, well that makes sense. Now let's talk about luxury items. 'cause it's a [00:39:00] favorite topic, right?

[00:39:01] Allan: Okay, perfect.

[00:39:02] Simon: To get from point A to point B, I just need a car

[00:39:09] Allan: Yeah,

[00:39:11] Simon: to get from point A to point B. If I want to go from point A to, and this makes sense. To get from point A to point B. That's not a well drawn sports car, but you know what I'm going for, right? Let's call that a Lambo Lamborghini. Owners will hate me for that, but let's call that a Lambo. I do not need a Lambo to get from point A

[00:39:40] Allan: no, you don't.

[00:39:42] Simon: And some people will say, that doesn't make sense,

[00:39:45] Allan: Yeah.

[00:39:47] Simon: right?

[00:39:48] Simon: Some people will say it does make sense. And the question is, what constitutes the difference? Right? [00:40:00] What constitutes the difference is what percentage of your non-discretionary money does that Lambo occupy?

[00:40:08] Simon: And so if the Lambo is less than. Let's say 0.1% of your discretionary money, this makes total

[00:40:19] Allan: Yeah.

[00:40:20] Simon: but if it's greater than even 2% of your discretionary money, this might not make sense. And so if it's price value is greater than 2%, you might come down a level and buy, you know, something in the middle that's, you know, still pretty cool, but not quite a Lambo. And you might go, well, that occupies less than, you know, 0.1% that makes sense to me. And this keeps happening until we arrive at the one that makes sense.

[00:40:51] Simon: But if you earn $40,000 a year and the car costs you 10, this is not a discretionary [00:41:00] purchase.

[00:41:00] Simon: But I have to get from point A to point B. And so it's not ideal, but it makes the most sense. Available to me. And so one of the dimensions that impacts, you know, what makes sense and what doesn't is, you know, how discretionary

[00:41:20] Simon: Is the spend, you know, the less discretionary the spend, the more it makes sense.

[00:41:26] Simon: I have to have a car that's not up for debate. So now I now I've just gotta buy the car that I can afford, right?

[00:41:34] Allan: Well, where does status play a role?

[00:41:36] Simon: right. So, so here's the other

[00:41:38] Allan: Yeah,

[00:41:41] Simon: Next to discretionary spending is ego.

[00:41:46] Simon: And let's call this the ego

[00:41:47] Allan: yeah.

[00:41:49] Simon: So sometimes people's discretionary spend is actually down here so they can spend $30,000 on a car. [00:42:00] But their ego caused them to buy an $80,000 car. That doesn't actually make sense from a discretionary spend point of view, but makes total sense from an ego point of

[00:42:09] Allan: Yes.

[00:42:11] Simon: right?

[00:42:11] Simon: And I can't really afford a Lambo, but my ego says I should have one. And that makes sense. A lot of people will make things make sense if it fits their ego.

[00:42:22] Simon: And so, you know, it's ego versus need. None of us actually need a car that cost any more than $20,000. Like I could get up from here, my desk right now, go down to a dealership 10 minutes away, and probably buy a car for $10,000 that will drive for years with minimal problems that will get me from point A to point B.

[00:42:48] Simon: I could probably get one for less than $10,000 and as long as I service it every year, et cetera, et cetera. It will transport me around just fine and could probably drive from Perth [00:43:00] to Sydney just fine, but it doesn't match my

[00:43:04] Allan: Yeah.

[00:43:05] Simon: and I have a greater discretionary spend than $10,000 available on a car.

[00:43:11] Simon: So now my buying inclination is elevating. And, you know, so if I think about you know, if we put those two lines together and we go, you know, discretionary spend plus ego starts to give me a range of what my buying inclination is. And so if if my discretionary spend is here I have this range. That we might call buying inclination. I'm gonna, I'm inclined to buy something inside that range.

[00:43:55] Allan: Hmm.

[00:43:55] Simon: And, you know, the person that comes along with something that makes [00:44:00] sense in there, to me, something that makes common sense in there, to me, they're likely to buy from me.

[00:44:12] Allan: Hmm.

[00:44:12] Simon: you know, these are the kind of really deep, hidden nuances of how people transact with each other that we really need to understand and explore a bit more. Does that, Does that make sense to

[00:44:22] Simon: you?

[00:44:22] Allan: does make sense. It does make sense to me.

[00:44:24] The Psychology of Sales and Customer Belief
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[00:44:24] Allan: The other bit that I wanted to discuss is a lot of times in the sales process, especially if you're selling something transformational, let's say it could be coaching or of any kind let's say fitness or business coaching or whatever it requires their effort to get a result, right?

[00:44:43] Allan: So like, I could hire the world's best fitness coach and if I don't do the stuff, if I don't show up to the gym I'm not gonna get any results. I mean, that's kind of obvious. So. A lot of times they may believe in you. They may believe that you are an amazing coach, that [00:45:00] you are super competent.

[00:45:01] Allan: You know what you're doing. You've helped other people do that, but they don't believe in themselves. They're like, you know, I've tried this 10 different times and I've failed every single time. Or, you know, I can never stick to a diet or I can never, never show up to a gym consistently. So how do you overcome that gap when the belief is not in necessarily new, but in them.

[00:45:20] Simon: yeah, Yeah, sure. you know, there are five primary emotional movements in the sale.

[00:45:25] Simon: The first one is who, who can help me

[00:45:29] Simon: With this thing? And uh, the emotion sitting underneath that is curiosity. Like, who's out there that could help

[00:45:39] Simon: me with this thing? And so we want a way of showing up that brings a higher level of curiosity to the prospect than everybody else. We of course, do that with visual models and and expression of deep conversation. But once that's resolved, these three or four people look kind of interesting then [00:46:00] we move into, well, why would I do this and why would I do this now?

[00:46:04] Simon: And this is actually about tension. We have to build a level of tension for. Anyone to make a purchase on anything. And we do that with a specific model that we call the pre-frame model, where we basically tell a story that says, you're stuck down here somewhere. Do you wanna be at the top of the pyramid?

[00:46:22] Simon: A very deliberate specific way of walking through that in marketing. And just to give you an example of how a model could work in marketing, imagine you'd built a really powerful pre-frame model that said, some people are stuck in the red zone. Some are in the amber zone, are fewer in the light green zone, and this is what those zones are called.

[00:46:42] Simon: But there are, there's a small number of people that are here in this dark green zone enjoying all sorts of benefits. And uh, you know, I'm gonna run a webinar in a week that will unpack that zone and tell you exactly what that is. That's a classic open loop. [00:47:00] You put a model into your marketing with an empty space.

[00:47:02] Simon: Unnamed and unexplained drives people nuts. They will come to the webinar to find out what the top of the model is, right? It's a visual open loop. And so then we've got this you know, people move from the why to what, so what exactly is this? And this, the underlying tension here is desire, emotion is desire.

[00:47:23] Simon: We do that with a value conversation. And then it steps into the how does this happen? And this is actually about confidence. And we do that with a genius model, build confidence that this will solve their problem. And then the last emotional movement is when, which is commitment.

[00:47:42] Simon: Okay, it's time for you to do something.

[00:47:43] Simon: And we do that with what we call the futures model. Now, the important thing to understand is when somebody is looking to buy a product or service, there's a line that runs right down through the middle of the how step now, you know, with [00:48:00] SImon Sinek, find your why.

[00:48:01] Simon: Everyone says no one cares about what you do until they know why you do it. I don't entirely agree

[00:48:07] Allan: I don't agree with that in, in any way.

[00:48:09] Simon: no. And when I say that at conferences, is this big sucking in of breath, like you disagree? Yeah, of course. Because it would be more accurate if we said, no one cares about what you do. Until they know that they are the reason why you do it, that's actually all they care about.

[00:48:24] Simon: Am I your reason for existence? If so, then maybe I'll listen to you. And so when people are looking for a solution to a problem, they come up to this line based on their current situation. This thing's happening. I don't like it. Whether this is a life coaching situation, an engineering solution, a financial kind of planning process or a health improvement.

[00:48:55] Simon: They are looking through the lens of the current situation and they come [00:49:00] right up to the line that runs down the middle of confidence and they're exploring that through the lens of interest. Okay. I'm looking for the things that could work for me out of interest. How many options have I got?

[00:49:13] Simon: Right? They're shopping around. But they make the decision to purchase on the other side of this line based on history. So the history of them and others.

[00:49:30] Simon: So they haven't made this work in the past for themselves and. They've hired other people in the past and they didn't help me either. So I'm a bit burnt.

[00:49:41] Simon: And so I make the decision based on insurance. Every sale, every single sale is more of an insurance policy than it is a promise. I want [00:50:00] insurance that I can't mess this up and that it's not gonna be messed up like other people have in the past. And the key to insurance is being able to explain to people how you do what you do in such a powerful way.

[00:50:15] Simon: They go, I believe you. I believe you represent, and the genius of your company represents an insurance policy for me. That I can't mess this up. And uh, that the failures I've experienced with other people isn't gonna happen. And so we usually use this genius model. Sorry, futures model where we say, well, Here you are right now and the future is ahead of you. And people say you can't predict the future, but you, but we actually can. This is to address your question. Now we actually can, we know there are two possible futures ahead of you. There is an amazing future ahead of you in terms of this thing that you're wrestling with, or there's a crisis future ahead of you in terms of this thing that you're [00:51:00] wrestling with.

[00:51:01] Simon: One or one of those is gonna be ahead of you. It's possible that, you know, you could land in an amber zone somewhere through an amber zone, somewhere through the middle. But really amber is just red in disguise, right? And so people say you can't predict the future, but we actually can. And I can also tell you it's not a straight line between where you are today and the future.

[00:51:26] Simon: It's a curve. Yeah, time bends everything. Time compounds everything. So if you drift, that drift will accelerate downwards at a more rapid rate. As time passes, time does two things. It always beats us and it always compounds everything. And so in the same way, having an amazing outcome, if you make the right decisions and actions can compound upwards for you.

[00:51:56] Simon: And people kind of look at this issue that we're talking about. Let's talk [00:52:00] about financial planning or whatever. And they, they look at it as if they're already in their future and they've just realized the gap's too big. But right now, in this moment, even if you're on the red line, you're as close to that green line as you're ever gonna be. And so why don't we put a framework in place that will actually put you on the green line so that you know, with some certainty. That you are actually solidly on the green line today. You're not at the top yet, but you are actually on the green line. And they're gonna go, hell yes, great. Here's how this works.

[00:52:35] Simon: And then you say, but we also know that there are certain gateways we have to walk through on that line together and shut behind us in. And we apply our framework to keep doing that, to keep you on the green line because you know, we've taken hundreds of people on that pathway and we can absolutely [00:53:00] guarantee the pathway 'cause we've proven it.

[00:53:05] Simon: Go through the gate and shut it, go through the gate and shut it, go through the gate and shut it. I am willing to guarantee that pathway, but I can't guarantee the result. Why do you suppose I might not be able to guarantee the result? And they'll go, well, I don't know because we've discovered. No one falls off the green line.

[00:53:24] Simon: They just behave their way off the green line. So if you can guarantee your behavior as green line behavior, we can guarantee the gateways together. We can actually guarantee the result.

[00:53:37] Simon: 'cause I can guarantee the pathway. All I need you to do is guarantee your behavior. Now, if you can't guarantee your behavior, would it be okay if I held you accountable

[00:53:48] Allan: hmm.

[00:53:48] Simon: And they go, well, yeah.

[00:53:49] Simon: Okay, great. The biggest thing you could do wrong is come off the green line and not tell me.

[00:53:56] Allan: Hmm

[00:53:57] Simon: If you just send me an email saying off the green [00:54:00] line, that means you are falling towards red. I will email you back and say, right here's what we're doing. And we don't do incremental return to the green line.

[00:54:12] Simon: It takes too long. We do immediate readjustment.

[00:54:16] Allan: hmm.

[00:54:16] Simon: So your, only priority as a client, this is in intangible stuff, life coaching or whatever, is to send me an email saying off the green line, or send me an email that says, red, or send me an email that says, Amber, just in the subject line, put one word red.

[00:54:31] Simon: In fact, he, how about we do this every week? If we were to work together, I want you to send me an email that just says, red, amber, or green in the subject line. That's all I want from you.

[00:54:40] Allan: Yeah.

[00:54:41] Simon: if it does, if it says anything but green, I am reaching out to you to get us back on the green

[00:54:45] Allan: Yeah,

[00:54:46] Simon: And then, you know, we don't shut these gates behind us until the gate is really shut.

[00:54:51] Simon: Meaning it won't allow any slide backwards. We've put mechanisms in place now and then we're going for the next gate. I [00:55:00] can guarantee the pathway. I can't guarantee the results unless you're willing to commit to an email every week that says red, amber, or green in the subject line. If you can make that commitment we together can actually guarantee ourselves the result.

[00:55:13] Allan: I love it. I love it. Very

[00:55:14] Simon: And, and like it's an accountability tool as well as a selling tool. Right now, sort of anyone listening to this podcast should be having this conversation in their sales talk right now,

[00:55:25] Allan: Hmm.

[00:55:26] Simon: And then it turns into the delivery tool because it's the accountability mechanism and it's all done with one little model hand drawn.

[00:55:34] Simon: It's better to draw than it is to use PowerPoint. People get drawn in when you draw. But imagine, you know, you're a coach and um, you know, a client's come on board, you've had this conversation with them, and then you're saying, okay, I need to onboard you. And our goal in the next 30 to 90 days is to have you [00:56:00] absolutely solidly on the green line.

[00:56:03] Simon: So is it okay if I'm brutal. With you for the first 30 days, because the first step in moving to the green line is reality. I'm gonna get you to stare into the abyss and confront that your own harsh line of reality right now. And the second 30 days is going to be calming because we're actually going to shift perception. Right now, your reality is your perception. You can't see any possibility. But in the second 30 days, we're gonna identify other people call this goal setting.

[00:56:48] Simon: It's not goal setting yet. Goal setting's up here. What I need to do first is shift your perception around possibility.

[00:56:53] Simon: So we're gonna shift perception and that's gonna calm you. And then the third 30 days is gonna be about excitement. [00:57:00] And that's about foundation in the third 30 days. We're gonna build such a strong platform that once we pass that point, there's no way you could slide back. Would that be okay if we did that in the first 90 days together?

[00:57:19] Simon: Who's not gonna buy

[00:57:20] Allan: Yeah, I love it. I love

[00:57:21] Simon: You know? Now that could be applied to almost every business, actually, not just the intangibles. So, you know, this stuff's a just so powerful Allan, and it's decades of kind of work

[00:57:35] Allan: see that. Yeah.

[00:57:35] Simon: insight and thinking on my part, but also decades now of working with clients and seeing lots of variations.

[00:57:42] Simon: But, you know, if the people looking at this episode of the podcast did nothing else but use this, it will change their sales results. I.

[00:57:49] Allan: I totally agree,

[00:57:50] Allan: So Simon this model, it looks very simple. There's obviously a lot of depth to it. How would someone implement this in their business? What are some resources that people can use [00:58:00] to get started straight away, get a result?

[00:58:02] Simon: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all you know, just implement what you've just seen me do with the futures model straight in your sales process. It's both the model and the choreography, how you walk through it. But we work with companies in two ways. You know, companies between the kind of seven $52 million revenue mark, you know, tend to come to our group.

[00:58:23] Simon: Process where in the first 12 weeks we built out a complete suite of models with those companies. This is a very hands-on process for us. It's a mix of live sessions with me and my coaches and an online community where we provide a lot of feedback as people post their work into it. A really robust online academy of resources including resources for using the models in your marketing and in your sales process.

[00:58:44] Simon: We have the sales process mapped with the models. For example, we have a 15 chapter book outline that once you've built your models. And you have the choreography for them. The book almost writes itself. Um, And so then we have people stay with us then for the remainder of a [00:59:00] 12 month period, so we can help them with deployment into marketing and selling.

[00:59:03] Simon: And my goal is to help them become models based thinkers basically. And then we also work privately in a private consulting, structure for companies kind of above that 2 million mark that might need multiple people in a team to build the models. So it might be marketing, sales, and operations. it's a done for you solution.

[00:59:25] Simon: I. They just come to the Zoom call with us. I pull everything out of them, and then my team build the resources. I record all the choreography. We build a, permanent online resource they can use to train current and future sales teams. Basically say, watch those videos. That's how we talk about what we do and um, you know, so group and one to one.

[00:59:46] Simon: And that's all@modelsmethod.com.

[00:59:49] Allan: And we'll link through that.

[00:59:50] Simon: And they'll also find a lot of other resources, a lot of other bingeable resources there. And uh, same with my YouTube channel. I, you know, I have a lot of [01:00:00] content. I run a 20 minute teaching every month where I turn on the camera, I put the timer on, and I go for 20 minutes.

[01:00:06] Simon: And I usually pick a topic and unpack it. And that's probably the most popular thing people come to is my 20 minute teaching. So I, you know, I'd love to share. a, A little resource with people that I call the price positioning Bell Curve, which is about how you can use the bell curve in a simple way to recalibrate a prospect's sense of price so that you know, they know that if they're not paying the right price, they're gonna get a rubbish solution.

[01:00:35] Simon: And um, you know, when, when people put their email address in to get that model. They'll also be subscribed to the notifications for the 20 minute teaching, and I'd love to, I'll give, you know, if they click the link for that, they'll be able to get that little resource.

[01:00:50] Allan: Oh, perfect. We'll link to all that, Simon. I'm definitely going to do a lot more visual teaching as a result of what you've taught me today. I think that's super, super powerful [01:01:00] and you know, thank you so much for your time. You've been very generous. Us and you know, I can see now clearly why you, you are such a big deal.

[01:01:07] Allan: Why? Why your reputation p precedes you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[01:01:12] Simon: been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[01:01:14] Allan: My pleasure.

[01:01:15] ​

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