Sales Strategies for Fewer Rejections: An Interview with Josh Braun

Sales Strategies for Fewer Rejections: An Interview with Josh Braun
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[00:00:00]

Josh Braun's Background
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Josh: I am constantly trying to figure out if they can solve this problem without me,

So that I don't get in a position where I'm wasting time chasing deals that don't close. not getting a sale early is a perfectly good outcome if determined early, but not late.

so I'm always asking these questions during the conversation to determine the likelihood that they might switch. And I'm never chasing.

Allan: Today on the show, we have Josh Braun. So a lot of times when we see sales trainers, particularly on the internet, they're kind of the aggressive approach, the cigar chomping, loud, aggressive approach. And the reason that you came onto my radar, Josh, is because you have a very different approach.

You're kind of quiet, calm. I suspect you're an introvert like myself where like, being out there and being loud and all of that is not your natural tendencies. So, welcome to the show.

And maybe if you start a little bit with your background, how you came to be doing what you're doing and we'll kick off and talk [00:01:00] sales.

Josh: Yeah, sure. So thanks for having me on. I started off my first sales job teaching kindergartners the love of reading and writing. So I had to sell books to like five year olds and then I got promoted and had to do that for first graders and second graders and third graders and that is a tough sale as you start to creep up.

It's a little bit easier at kindergarten, but you get up to fourth or fifth grade. You're competing with other things. It's a hard sale and what I learned In that experience is that selling kids on books is very much like selling people on software. A lot of the fundamentals are the same. You have to find something that will make the other person happy.

And that varies based on who you're talking to. And then you have to be able to enable other people to motivate themselves to choose the book. Because if you choose the book for them, if you force it on them, uh, people won't like them very much. So the art of teaching [00:02:00] is to find out what makes kids happy, and then present it in a way where kids and adults have the choice to decide if they want to pick up the book or not, and being okay if they don't want to pick up the book, knowing that your book is for some kids but not for other kids.

So a lot of the fundamentals that I learned As I teach adults now sales and is picked up from what I taught elementary school kids You also get objections from parents. why are you recommending this book to my kid? So you have to deal with that dynamic as well

Allan: No, fair enough. And so I've made that assumption when we started would you consider yourself an introvert or would you consider yourself an extrovert? and how do you feel that plays into your sales approach?

Empathy and Non-Aggressive Sales Techniques
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Josh: Yeah, I'm more of an introvert I'm more of an empath. I've always been that way. I'm always trying to see and more importantly feel, and it is a feeling what other people are feeling. And sometimes that's as subtle as picking up on, you know, some body [00:03:00] cues or language that might not be said, but can be felt.

Like, I'll just give you an example. I was on a call with a potential prospect the other day and there was two other people on the call and I noticed that two of them, who were the more senior people were kind of like disinterested. It wasn't that they were saying they were disinterested, but I could tell they were kind of checked out.

Like, I sensed it. And so what I did in that moment is I just paused the conversation and I simply said it seems like, this might not be the right time to look at an external trainer. And they just unloaded about why it's not a good time to look at an external trainer. Because I joined in that moment the conversation that they were having in their head and they just let it loose.

Now this is great from a solopreneur perspective because you can waste a lot of time. chasing deals that don't close. And so this idea of being empathic to others, to making others feel heard and [00:04:00] understood. I picked up a lot of it when I went to see a psychologist to work on some personal issues. I was fascinated by how they would draw me out and how they would create this sort of Connection with me, even though they weren't doing the majority of the talking, they were asking questions and picking up on things.

And Carl Young does this. If you read any of his work you know, seems like, looks like, feels like to make people feel understood. And it turns out that once you do that first, people are more receptive to understanding you.

Allan: Yes, totally. What you said I'll underline is entering that conversation that's happening in their mind, particularly from a marketing perspective, that's so powerful when you read copy or you hear someone say that something that you're thinking. So whether it's marketing, whether it's sales, I really like an integrated approach from, in terms of sales and marketing.

I mean, if we've done our marketing right as marketers, if we've entered that conversation that's happening in their mind. if we're [00:05:00] nurturing them in a value based approach, sales should become very effortless and easy. It shouldn't become an adversarial thing where I'm pushing, you're pushing back and there's a lot of friction.

So, how did you go from becoming an elementary teacher to sales? And how did you come to that unique approach to sales? Because I think you do have a really unique voice when it comes to sales, because it's quite different from what a lot of people talk about.

You have, Like you say, a very empathic, a quiet approach, a non aggressive approach, a non adversarial approach. Talk a little bit about that. and then coming through with this kind of philosophy?

Josh: Yeah, sure. So I'll answer that in two parts. How did I go from being an elementary teacher to sales? And then about the approach, they're intertwined a little bit. I'm two years into getting my doctorate. I wanted to be an elementary school principal and I'm working out in the gym one day and there's a guy next to me talking about something called online education.

So all I heard was online education. I didn't know what [00:06:00] that was. I wasn't really a techie. So I started having a conversation with him and he was starting a online school for homeschool kids to teach them online. And he said, you're a teacher. You would fit right into this company. You could sell this thing, sell it to schools.

And I go, I don't know anything about sales. He says, well, just come on over to the place and let me show it to you. Let me show you what it is. And from there he showed me what he was doing. And I took a real liking to him. He had such belief. That I could do this. That I left my two years into being a doctorate because I thought, would I always like have a regret if I didn't try this thing?

you know, the sort of. com thing. I said, I could always come back to being a principal. So his name was Scott Udine and the company was Child U and uh, worked with him for a long time. That's how I got into sales and specifically educational technology. When I got into sales, because I didn't know it, I just bought every book on sales.

And then I get my hands on and they were all pretty much the same. [00:07:00] They all involved what I called pushing, convincing, and begging. They didn't call it that, but that's what it felt like whenever I read any of those sales books, even the way they were, the titles of the books, how to talk anyone into anything.

why would you want to do that? Like, that sounds, I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. So none of these approaches really felt right. At the same time I was studying. Stoicism, I was looking into psychedelics a little bit I was looking into Buddhism a little bit I had been going to therapy on some of my personal issues and I started to connect the dots between some of these philosophies and principles and way of being and sales and started to look at this as not selling but lowering resistance and building trust first, not as a mechanism to get a sale but just as an initial way to lower someone's guard when they're around a salesperson because of the negative baggage that salespeople have.

And so that was the impetus about 15 or so years ago of trying to take from those worlds and incorporate it into a sales [00:08:00] approach.

Allan: That's great. And so, was the thing that influenced you the most to like, why didn't you pursue a more aggressive approach to sales, because that's certainly something that I did. I remember in my first business when I was a dead broke IT geek, I hired a sales trainer.

and he taught all, all the old school stuff. Someone has an objection, you overcome that objection. You not making your numbers, you make your, it's a numbers game. You make more calls, you make more emails, you kind of brute force your way. And I just hated single day. I thought this was my life and this was sales.

And it wasn't until I came across A couple of mentors who were incredibly good at sales and they were personalities very much like myself, a lot quieter, a lot more focused on value, a lot more focused on just conversation and helping people get to an outcome. And that really changed my mindset.

that was a turning point for me where I thought, Wow, there is a different way. And I've got a team now who run [00:09:00] the sales team, but when I did do sales, my most effective approach was just to ask probing questions tell me more about that. And how did that make you feel?

And why did you connect with us? And so on really just a diagnostic approach, like a doctor, like, where does it hurt? When did it start? What about when I twist it this way? And then one of my most effective closes was, well, Josh where do you want to go from here? you know, where do you feel we should go from here?

So for that, and to me, that was a real turning point. I'm like, Oh, wow. You know, you don't have to be the cigar chomping Grant Cardone, the, you know, all of that sort of stuff to be good at sales. But what was your turning point?

Josh: I wrote something on a note card maybe 15 or 18 years ago. It said, sell like you want to be sold. And all the stuff I was reading and certainly the experiences that I had with salespeople, wasn't how I would want to be sold. So I figured, well, would other people, are they much different than I am? [00:10:00] sales has a bad rep for, you know, valid reasons.

I think we've all experienced, you know, negative experiences with salespeople because they're paid to close a sale. And so when your intent going in is to close a sale, you behave in ways that are aligned to that. And you feel like if you push and convince and beg, that's the fastest path to getting people to do what you want them to do.

The problem, of course, is people don't like being told what to do, especially by a salesperson who has commission breadth and a vested interest. People are more persuaded by reasons they hear themselves say than what a salesperson says. So I loved your approach there of, you know, sort of asking questions to see if there's a problem that's there and if it's something that you can solve.

And instead of trying to control the process, which is what the traditional sales process is controlling people through steps to actually surrender control, doesn't mean you give up, you don't believe, but you surrender control and you put forth options and you [00:11:00] let people decide what they want to do. I mean, one of the best examples of this happened to me, you know, just recently I had a tiny little leak in my shower head in the master bedroom.

So I called a plumber in and this is exactly what he said to me. Didn't say you got to get this fixed immediately. I'm the best guy to do it. If you don't do it now, the price is going to go up. The traditional sort of sales approach. He said let me take a look at it. He goes, here's the situation. Um, You have a small leak.

You can do nothing. It's really tiny. But if it continues the gasket behind the wall could weaken. And if that happens, you're looking at some structural damage behind the wall that will probably run you about 3, 000 if that happens by the time you get done with repairs. Or we can fix it today.

And that would be about 600. It's up to you. How would you like to proceed? So the best salespeople are the arbiter of unbiased information,

Allan: Hmm.

Josh: what you were talking about. They're sort of understanding the situation, laying out the options, and [00:12:00] letting the customer or the prospect decide what they want to do or not do.

I'll give you just another example of this cause it kind of illustrates it. I was getting my home renovated So I got three bids from three different GCs and one of the GCs who came highly recommended was like 18 percent more money than the other two. His name was Chris.

So I called him up, I go, Chris, you know, I like you and all, but you're like 20 percent more than the other GCs. Now the traditional sales approach would start to be like, let me tell you why I'm the best and you pay for what you get and my price is really going to go up. But he didn't do that. He leaned back, he detached.

And he said in a calm voice would it be okay if I asked you some questions about those other bids? And I said, sure. And I noticed he's not overcoming any objections.

so when they're putting your moisture barrier down, are they using red gate? Like, what's the barrier protection?

I go, I don't know. He goes, when they are going to replace your doors, you have 16 doors that need to be replaced, are they using hollow doors or solid wood doors? Because they kind of [00:13:00] feel different when they close. I go I'm not sure. He goes, when they're replacing your copper, are they using your existing pipes to redo that, or are they giving you all new copper pipes?

Because your copper pipes are about 18 years old. What he's doing is he's creating a knowledge gap.

And he's allowing me to see, you know, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. And if that matters to me, then Chris is actually not more money. He's letting me come to my conclusions by asking questions and with a little finesse.

And then letting me decide, Josh, I have no idea if this is important to you, but this is something you might want to look at so that you can make an informed decision. And he is completely indifferent. to the outcome. He's detached. when you care less about making the sale, like not as a philosophy to get a sale, but as a general philosophy of like indifference the more sales you end up making, because you don't emit that pushy, convincing, begging energy.

Allan: Yes. I heard my friend Daniel Priestley say he called it with or without you [00:14:00] energy. So,

Josh: That's great. That's a great way to put it.

Allan: it is yeah, so it's, look, we're going to do this with or without you, we'd love you on board. We'd love you to be part of the program or we'd love you, but this is kind of happening, right? One of the analogies that I really saw in sales, so I've been.

Married over 24 years and as a amateur husband early on, I was into solving problems. My wife would give me a problem, boom, solution. And I soon figured out that was not the optimal approach. My wife wanted to be heard. Right. And the solving of the problem was secondary, if needed at all.

And I found this very similar thing from a sales approach that prospecting wants to be heard. They want to tell you about the problems they've had, why they're, scared about going ahead, you know, why it's not going to work for them, all of that sort of thing. And those probing questions going through those probing [00:15:00] questions, it wasn't just for me to figure out the things that are going to help me convince them to buy.

But I found that someone would not buy until they felt I heard and understood where they were coming from, what, things they were afraid of, what things they were hoping to achieve, all of those sorts of things. If I had just launched into my pitch and told them why I'm awesome, why they're going to get a great result, all of those things prematurely that was something that was going to be very detrimental to the sale.

So I needed to get to a stage where they were basically had exhausted all of the things that they wanted known about, themselves, what they wanted to feel heard and understood. And only then were they kind of receptive to a message around, okay, well. what can you do for me? And I almost waited until they asked me, okay, well, so tell me a little bit about you or tell me a little bit about your program.

And that was for me by far the most effective approach. And so the diagnostic [00:16:00] questioning was something that really got me there.

is that similar to your approach? What's your sort of approach to the sales call? Are you taking a scripted approach?

Are you taking just an organic approach of asking questions? How do you advocate for that?

Josh: I mean, if you went into a travel agent and you didn't know, and you sat down in the chair across from them and they said, You're going to love China. It's freaking awesome. Let me show you the itinerary and they start going through a 14 day itinerary. You are not going to trust the recommendation

Allan: True.

Josh: because to your point, people won't trust someone if they don't feel heard and understood.

This isn't just sales. This is life as well. I mean, I was at the dog park the other day and some lady asked where I got my dog and I was honest with her. I said, I got it from a breeder. And she said, you're an a**hole You should adopt dogs from dog shelters. You people are terrible. Now, if I wasn't trained in this, inclination would be to defend your dog.

Tell her why. The problem is when you're explaining, [00:17:00] and you're defending, egos don't like that very much because what you're secretly saying is, I'm right and you're wrong. So in that moment I was able to pause and lean into it, And I said, you are a passionate animal lover. If more people adopted dogs, far fewer would be euthanized.

she starts going, you're right. And we had this, I want to say seven or eight minute dialogue to your point where I was just trying to understand her. Now that does not mean I agree with her. That does not mean that I justify how she responded, but once she felt heard, she goes, so I'm curious now, what's your take on why you got that dog?

And then I said, well, what do you do in those situations when you want a specific kind of hypoallergenic dog, but you can't find one at a shelter, but you still want to rescue it from a family. Because it was, you know, it needed another home. She goes, what do you mean? And now she was more receptive to what I was saying.

And it was a lovely, you know, conversation, you know, so it's this idea of being able to catch yourself first. When you're about to [00:18:00] go into explanation or solvent or fix it mode. And in sales, this happens all the time. A prospect says they have a problem. You know, our reps are afraid to pick up the phone.

Oh my God, we fix that all the time. We've done it for 500 sales organizations. Let me tell you why we're the best versus our reps are afraid to pick up the it's a cactus. Yeah, that's exactly it. They just never pick it up. They don't make any cold calls. What's your theory on why that is?

Well, bop, and now they're sort of opening up and you're sort of drawing it out and To your point by the time people get done Feeling like they've gotten it all out and they're understood. the brain naturally goes to what do you have for me? Now I can trust what you are gonna recommend because I felt that you understood my situation But like all skills These are skills that are taken for granted.

You know, we're all taught, told, you know, I have to listen. But no one's been taught how to listen. And that's a tragedy, because unless you realize this is a skill that you can learn and [00:19:00] practice and master, you can't get better at it.

Allan: You talk a lot about detaching from the outcome, meaning it's not that you're not caring about the outcome. You care about the outcome, but you detach from the person saying yes or no. Now, a lot of people would say, Hey, that's easier said than done.

I need to close the deals. I need to make my quota. I need to get, revenue into my business. So, what's your response to that? And how do you deal with that?

Josh: Again, this kind of gets, it's a little bit philosophical, but it'll lead into your question. If you go to a airport, And you expect your plane to take off on time, every time. Like, you want a sale to close every time. You are going to be sorely disappointed, a lot of the times, because the reality of an airport is that flights get delayed.

I was at a dog park five months ago, and this guy got so angry that he stepped in dog poop. He was trying to find the guilty dog. And the guilty dog owner. Because this guy doesn't know that people not picking up [00:20:00] dog poop is the reality of a dog park. Just like sales, the reality of sales is most things are not in your full control.

Allan: Yes.

Josh: Like you don't have full control over when or if people buy. And when you get wrapped up on that outcome, it not only is a recipe for being anxious and upset and frustrated, But it also pushes more people away. Ironically, when you let go of that, when you detach, the more sales you end up making. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith and then not listening to me, but actually trying it to see how it feels.

Allan: I like that. Talk me through common sales troubleshooting. So for example, we have a good conversation. You're giving me all sorts of buying signals. You're like, yep, great. This sounds really good. let me come back to you. Then you go cold. Or another sales scenario is sounds really good.

I need to speak to my partner, my business partner, my wife, my whatever. I need to get another party [00:21:00] involved. Or those kind of scenarios where, things look like they're heading in the right direction, and then often they just go cold for some inexplicable reason.

Josh: Yeah, I think there's a misconception that people think if someone has a problem they want to solve it. Oh my God, I saw that. They're going to want to do it. It's not true. I'll just give you an example. And there's tons of examples. You live with problems all the time, Allan. So do I, right now I have a TV in my back bedroom.

It's got a couple of pixels missing. It's a problem, but I rarely watch that TV. We don't have house guests over. And when I do watch it, I barely notice the pixels. So I'll look at your TV demo, but I'm not, I'll talk about it with my wife, but we're not going to probably get it a new TV. The problem isn't intense or frequent enough. The cost of inaction, or the waiting tax, isn't high enough for me to want to switch to a new TV. So early on in a sales conversation, we have to see the cost of the problem. Like, how big of a problem is this? Is it really small? Is it big? And can they do it themselves? Like, one of the questions I ask my inbound leads [00:22:00] all the time, one of the first questions I ask is, Hey John, what is one Challenge your sales team has.

But if you work with me, might get better. Like, what would you want to, improve? And they talk and they talk. And then I say, you guys have been at that company for 18 years. How come you haven't done the sales training yourself internally? I noticed that you're hiring a new VP of sales.

Wouldn't it make more sense to wait till he or she is on board before you bring in an external trainer? Like, I am constantly trying to figure out if they can solve this problem without me,

So that I don't get in a position where I'm wasting time chasing deals that don't close. Losing early, not losing, but not getting a sale early is a perfectly good outcome if determined early, but not late.

so I'm always asking these questions during the conversation to determine the likelihood that they might switch. And I'm never chasing. So at the end of every call, if they say to me, this sounds really like interesting, I want to talk about this with my [00:23:00] spouse. I might try to guess what that's about.

So that could be about a couple of things. They think it's too expensive. They don't think the solution actually solves the problem. They think they could do it themselves. There's like six of these things and I might just bring them out. It seems like it might just be a little cost prohibitive.

You're not sure this training is going to actually work for you guys. You've had Sandler training, you've had this training, you've had that training. Seems like the last thing your reps need is more training.

Right? I might go through some of that. And then, the reality of sales is you can do everything right and people will still ghost you.

Allan: Yes. like you could do everything right and your plane could still not be on time. So in those situations, what I do is I send a one sentence email that says something like this Hey Allan have you deferred the cold call workshop? Now one of two things will happen. You'll either say, well no, we were doing this, or yes, or you won't respond.

Josh: Either of those choices is fantastic because it doesn't require any more of my time. Or, You're now in my nurture track. I'm [00:24:00] not following up or chasing or doing anything. You're getting my content and then I'm onto the next thing because you can't lose a sale you never had. So people saying they're going to do something and not doing it is because it's awkward for them.

They don't know what to say, what to do, and just accept that as the reality of sales and be okay with it, knowing that's going to happen sometimes. I also asked like you do at the end of a call, where would you like to go from here? Sometimes I'll say, would it make sense after you have a conversation with Mary to loop back in?

just so we're not playing the chase game. My goal is to help people make a decision, even if that doesn't involve me.

Allan: how do you make transfer kind of the conviction that your program is going to work for them. So, Hey, we've done sales training tons of times in the past. It's really never kind of stuck or whatever else. So whatever that person is selling.

So there's often, two things they've got to believe in. They've got to believe in you and then they've got to believe in themselves. Hey, I've tried dieting before and I've never been [00:25:00] able to stick with it. So yeah, I might believe you're an excellent trainer, but I don't think I can stick to diets long term or whatever.

So I found there's two things that you've really got to kind of overcome those hurdles of belief in you and belief in themselves that they'll be able to actually implement the program.

Josh: Yeah. So I never tell people what I'm going to do is going to work because the training in and of itself doesn't do anything. It's the coaching that's going to make it stick. So I will bring all those things up. in the call. The other thing is, by the time people are coming to me, they've been reading my posts for a year or two, if not more.

So the posts are like salespeople. By the time they get to me, they kind of trust, they've seen the logos, they kind of trust.

The Reality of Sales Training and Motivation
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Josh: But if they say to me, are there any guarantees? I'm like, absolutely not. like if you want to learn how to play the piano, I'm going to give you some lessons. But it's not 30 minutes and you're going to be a master piano player.

It requires, you know, some managers there, It requires coaching, it requires [00:26:00] practice. to be able to make some progress. but it has nothing to do with me. The information is 10 percent of this. The 90 percent is this.

And so I will try to make sure that they actually have that in place before they bring me on. Again, trying to talk them out of it. A lot of times too, people will bring me in for a sales kickoff meeting for like an hour, and they'll say what changes, how are our sales people going to get better after you leave?

And I go, they probably won't. if you work out for an hour, you're probably not going to notice any change. Even if you're with a trainer, if your expectation is that it's going to get better I am definitely not person. I'm here mostly for entertainment and motivation.

If you want to make change, it requires a lot more piano practice and individuals that are motivated. Because they don't deliberately practice every day for like three or four years So the sales kickoff meeting and the sales training like I say is like it may even be 5 percent of it You know 8 percent when people bring me on I just want Josh on the stage to motivate people they want to meet me or whatever like fine But if the expectation is How are they going to get better after the hour?

I just flat out tell [00:27:00] them they are not

because that's the truth.

Allan: Yes. And so, where someone doesn't have a belief that they can or will implement it. Do you outline a process where, Hey, look we, we understand that's a problem and we will take you through the, this, or you're just like, Hey, I'm the personal trainer.

It's up to you to train. Where's that line between, Kind of transferring the belief in themselves, because a lot of it is sometimes getting someone to believe in themselves, right? Even, I mean, you've been an elementary school teacher, you would have seen many times a child or someone that, has potential, but doesn't have that belief in themselves where they can actually do what they're hoping to do.

Josh: So there's something in psychology called motivational interviewing, which is forming the basis of some of the stuff I'll talk about now. If you are telling people things and you are lecturing to people and you are explaining to people why they should be motivated you are losing because that's coming from you, not [00:28:00] them.

So motivational interviewing is a technique that I experienced when I was with a psychologist, where they're helping you determine your own level of motivation for doing something. Through questioning. What do you think you'll do? What have you tried? How ready are you to do something like that?

Like on a scale here. Why do this, like, even now? And what you're listening for is someone's motivation. If someone's at a zero motivation they're not ready to change it. There's nothing you could do about it. Some people know that smoking's bad for them. They don't need you to lecture them on why they should stop smoking.

They know it's bad and they're continuing to do it anyway because they get a lot of benefits from it. Helps them relax, helps them unwind, maybe it's social. If there's no motivation There's no you there. You don't create the motivation, you align with it. So the skill here is being able to ask the questions in such a way where you don't fill people's head with information, you draw it out.

I'm letting them find the belief in themselves.

Allan: So you're you trying to see, is this something that's, a big emotional driver for them right now? this is the right [00:29:00] time, I guess, when the student's ready, the teacher will arrive kind of thing.

Josh: Well, kind of like Allan, when was the last time you were, you got a full body scan at the dermatologist?

Allan: Never.

Josh: Okay, never. Now, one approach here would be for me to tell you why you should go get a full body scan. So if I were to give you a lecture now on why you should go at least once a year you are not going to be open to that

Allan: True.

Josh: because I am telling you something,

Allan: True.

Josh: right? But if I said something to you like this Allan, sounds like you have a reason for not going to the dermatologist.

Allan: I would say, yeah, I don't burn easily. I don't, it just hasn't been a priority. Just something I haven't thought of. But now that you've brought it up, I probably will.

Josh: what might change for the better if you went? Like, why would you even want to consider going?

Allan: Yeah. Certainty, you

Josh: See what we're doing here now? You're not going to start to tell me, Well, I could do this, I could do that, I could do this. And now all of a sudden, you're talking about your reasons for wanting to go to a dermatologist.

I'm not giving you my [00:30:00] reasons to go Right? So whenever anyone feels like they're being, if you're lecturing to someone, I'm like, Ooh. You're doing it wrong.

Allan: Yeah.

Josh: And sales is all about the pitch. So we don't want to be pitching or talking at people.

Allan: That's really good.

Effective Cold Outreach Strategies
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Allan: So take me through your approach to cold sales and How does that differ from what you're doing from when you get a, an inbound lead versus, you know, when you're going for someone cold?

Josh: I'll give you an example. You tell me what these two stories have in common. So here's story number one. Several years ago I was in the mall with my wife and I did not need anything. She was going to return some items. We were going to grab some dinner afterwards.

So I was just, you know, keeping her company. And I walked by like a fit to run store, not needing anything. If the sales associate said, do you have any problems with your sneakers? What do you think I would have said? If there was a sign on the door that said, we're running this great special on Brooks running shoes, 20 percent off, you think I would have gotten them?

No. If she said, can I help you? What do you think I would have [00:31:00] said?

Allan: I'm fine.

Josh: Fine, I'm not, I'm good. She didn't do any of those things. She saw me kind of walking by the store. She noticed my sneakers. And she goes, Oh, are you a runner? And I go, I am. She goes, Are you training for any races? And I go, I'm training for my first half marathon.

She goes, Oh, where are you guys, where are you doing that? I go, Miami. She goes, Oh, you've probably had a running gait test. I go, What? She goes, A running gait test. I go, What is that? Moments later I'm in the store, fit to run. She gets me on a treadmill. I have a picture of this if you want to see it. She freezes the frame and she zooms into my ankles.

And she says, Notice how your ankles are overpronating. And I go, yeah. She goes, well the problem is if you're running sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you can get injured, especially on long distance runs. Get things like runner's knee and plantar If you'd like, I could check your sneakers to see if they're made for pronated feet. And, I don't know, about eight minutes later, I'm spending 180 on new sneakers and insoles.

Allan: Beautiful.

Josh: that's number one. Here's story number two. You tell me what they have in common. I love to wash my car on the weekends. I just like it. One day I get this email from this place called Adam's Car Wash Supply Company.

I guess I [00:32:00] must have put my name in some list somewhere. And the email said, I'll never forget this line. How do you know your wash mitt isn't scratching your car? Now it turns out that if you wash your car with a normal bucket and sponge, which is most people. And you're a car nut like I am. Dirt can get, and grit can get trapped in the sponge because it's dirty.

And when you rub it on your car, you can get scratches, swirl marks. And that's expensive to get it taken out professionally. It's like, depending on the extent of it, it could be like 900 to 2, 000. But not only that, when you go to resale your car, they run a paint thin meter over the hood, or wherever the scratches are, they can see that it's been repainted, your car's worth less.

Now, they sell this thing called a grit guard, goes inside the bucket, and you rub your sponge on it, and the dirt settles to the bottom of the bucket and off your car. And I bought it, it was like 25 bucks. What do those two stories have in common, Allan?

Allan: They educated you about something you didn't know before?

Josh: Yes. So when you're going outbound, [00:33:00] everybody's running in sneakers.

Everybody's washing their car. In order for you to get someone's attention, You need to shine a light on a potential problem that people might not know about. It's a potential problem because the person might not be running 13 miles at all.

They might just be walking, in which case they won't care. It's a potential problem because I don't really care about my cards and old clunker. The problem only matters if it matters to the person. But you have to have a point of view about what's broken with the current way. No matter what you sell, people have a bucket and sponge.

No matter what you sell, they're running in sneakers. Most of the emails I get come across like, I don't have sneakers. Of course I do. What don't I know about my sneakers? What terrible, no good, very bad thing happens if I keep running in them?

I'll give you just another example, because it's just top of mind.

I just got into fly fishing. So, if you're new to fly fishing, one of the hardest things, because you don't have finger dexterity, is tying the flies. to the hook. These are very tiny little things, and you drop this thing really easily, you get these birds [00:34:00] nests, and you spend a tremendous amount of time figuring this out.

So if I got an email or a cold call from someone that said this, Hey Josh I don't know if you're experiencing this, but many beginner fly fishers that I speak with say they find it challenging. to tie knots, like the Orvis knot and the triple surgeon knot, because they don't have the finger dexterity, since they're new to the sport.

Is that something you're experiencing or not really? I am gonna lean right forward there, because that's like, again, to your point, reading my mind. And I'm gonna go, yeah, my God, that's my entire life. And then instead of going into a pitch, the salesperson's gonna draw it out of him. They're gonna say this, Oh, you've probably heard of a knot needle.

What's that? Well then they could show it to you. Well a knot needle is this device, looks like a needle, and you put the line through it, so you can tie the hook on more easily, you can see what you're doing, so you spend less time tying knots, more time fishing. How does it work? Well I could show you if you want to schedule some time.

If you're Selling something to someone that's done commission [00:35:00] calculations for 20 years and they're using spreadsheets and you automate it There's a ninety nine point nine percent chance They have considered automating it and have chosen not to so give them the benefit of the doubt So Johnny you guys calculating commissions and spreadsheets, or is it more automated spreadsheets?

How's that been going? It's going fine, whatever You've probably looked into automating it. We have Sounds like your payment rules were too complex. Well it's not that, it was X, Y, and Z. Like why didn't people switch? So the hardest thing about outbound is you have to know what people are currently doing to get the job done and you have to have a perspective, a theory of mind about what is broken about it potentially to then be able to craft your message.

Allan: The other thing that I've personally noticed is there's completely different energies to some cold out reaches one from another. For example, so many times I've been in market for the very thing that someone is cold out reaching to [00:36:00] me about. and I still say no just because, I don't know, I can't put my finger on it.

I'm like, I need this. I'm in the market for this. This person is pitching me on this and I still say no. And I'm looking for a friend recommendations or somebody else's recommendations because I don't know, I can't put my finger on it, but there's something that's making me not want to connect with this person.

Whereas there have been other times where, you I'm not in, not remotely in market for this product or service. And the approach has been so good. And like you said, they've shined a light on something that I didn't know before, or something that and may not have been aware of, and I ended up spending a huge amount of money on something I had no intention whatsoever of doing.

And so, sometimes it's clear what it is. Sometimes it's, look, it's clear this person has just copied and pasted the same stupid email to thousands of people. But other times it's not even that. It's sometimes they may even take a more personalized approach and I don't know, there's just something about this.

[00:37:00] I don't really want to buy from this person and I don't know why.

Josh: What's your best guess?

Allan: My best guess is it's often high trust things. So for example I'm in the book business and I was recently getting printing quotes. And, you know, care deeply about the quality of the book. You know, hundreds of thousands of people have this on their shelf potentially for decades.

So I am, you know, I care very much about the quality that it's going to come out with. So I see in my spam box all the time, people pitching printing quotes and things like that. And do I want to buy printing at a lower cost? For sure. You know, but that's maybe not my number one driver, but you know, this is going to sound a little woo, but I think there's that desperation energy.

as well. I think that comes across in an email. I think that comes across in a cold call. yeah, I don't know. I, my, my best guess is that kind of desperate energy.

Josh: So see what I did there? You actually do know. But if I was a traditional salesperson, I would have told you, which is [00:38:00] not going to be what you would have said. So I said, what's your best guess? And you just unloaded for three minutes.

So this is what's called drawing someone out. You do know. So it's the same thing with your prospects.

You sort of are drawing them out and you're 100 percent right. It's a feeling that you get. So we're at the tin muffin.

I'm not a dessert guy at all We had a server. Her name was Jennifer and she came by after lunch and Such a great line. She goes, are you afraid of dessert? Not do you want dessert are you afraid of dessert just likable I go you got me She goes I'm not a big dessert fan. What do you got? She goes, well, we got a lot of things but There's one thing I can't stand bananas.

Now, I don't like bananas either. She goes, I don't like bananas, but our banana pie is life altering, and I hate bananas. I have two kids and three cats, and this is the best thing in my life. If you'd like, I could see if we have any left. It's a feeling. I'm like, bring it. And it's amazing. Now, [00:39:00] was it amazing? I don't know. But it's a transfer of emotion, like a transfer of confidence in that moment. It's not, what do you want for dessert? We have the best banana pie. It's like a feeling that you get when you know that she believes in it, but she's also doing it in a way that's pleasurable.

You know, and it feels a certain way. One of the best cold outreaches I got, very similar to what you read in the book, I have this thing called the Badass B2B Growth Guide. It's a digital thing. And I get this voicemail memo. on LinkedIn from this woman named Nellie Gibrar, I still have it. Such a smooth, like, British sounding voice. And she goes, Hey Josh I have your guide. It's wonderful. I hope I'm not offending you. But I found several grammatical and typographical errors in some of the pages that I looked at. And I've gone ahead and fixed them for you in this PDF.

Just to make sure that your words, you know, don't get lost. Because your lessons are really valuable. P. S. if you'd like I can [00:40:00] correct the whole guide for you. And she sent a PDF of her work. Just like if I was going to try to bid you out a book. I might actually send you some copies of books that I bound.

So you could actually see the quality. She kind of de risked the whole thing for me. I called her within like, and I very rarely respond to cold outreach. I may have called her in like five minutes. Because It felt, and I've shared this in workshops, it's in my guide. Thousands of people have heard this recording because that's what happens when you make people feel that way.

And it's really rare and it came from a place of genuine interest. She showed me something that I didn't know was a problem. She was okay not doing the work and I felt like she was putting my best interest first.

Allan: I love that. I love that. So it's really what I'm getting from you is how do you want to make that person feel like, because people are buying with emotions. So, in my new book, I talk about emotion that commits the crime and logic does the cover up. so that's that's something I've certainly found [00:41:00] from a marketing perspective.

I think that very much translates to sales. The other thing that I've noticed often is The mindset of the salesperson can dramatically shift the results that they get from a sales perspective. So I'll give you an example from my my haircut is based on a shaver. So I was at a shaver shop looking at different Shavers.

And the lady, I was looking at one that I thought I was going to buy. And she said no, you don't want that one. That's expensive. You know, like, yeah, here, I'll show you a cheap one. I'm like, no, I want that, the expensive one. I've had ones that keep breaking down, that have all sorts of problems or whatever.

So the kind of mindset of a salesperson around Whatever it is, especially money, can be extremely difficult. I mean, how many sales has she cost that business by telling people not to buy the expensive one and that there's a cheaper one that they should buy? Or, you know, driving, you know, her own mindset, kind of [00:42:00] driving people to kind of a lower cost option or whatever else.

That's something that I've found massively affects things. I also used to employ a salesperson who used to say, look, this stuff is so expensive. I mean, in this economy, who could afford to buy this stuff? And then conversely, I've employed salespeople who were like, this is incredible. Like people are getting an amazing transformation from this.

People can't afford not to buy this. Right. So, that makes a massive difference where people are the mindset of the salesperson being one that feels like this is good value. This is good for you. This is something that you want to buy that transfers, whether it's positive or negative.

Josh: Definitely, yeah, you have to believe in what you're selling. but you also can't come across as being too biased. I I can't tell people I'm the best sales trainer. Right, because I'm biased. So you can't come on too strong. You know, I've had something similar work in the other way. I used to shop at this [00:43:00] place called CompUSA,

Which was notorious for commission based salespeople trying to sell you extended warranties.

I mean, you had to I'd walk in that store, I'd have to duck and dodge because I knew what was happening. One time, HP's in there doing some kind of promotion, I went and got a new inkjet printer, and I'm walking out with it, and the salesperson, this guy's name is Dave, stops me, and I'm like, oh my god. I go, I don't want an extended warranty.

And he goes, oh, we're so aggressive with that, but that's not why I stopped you. I go, what's going on? He goes, HP is going to be doing a promotion on that printer. Next week, it's going to be 15 percent off. If you want to just wait a week, come back, we're going to have plenty of them in stock. I go, that would be amazing.

And I'm like, I'm buying everything from that guy, right? Like he's just doing what's in my best interest. And oftentimes, even if it's true or not, a salesperson trying to push someone to the highest tier, even if it's what they believe, can [00:44:00] feel disingenuous. because of course you want me to do that.

You want to make more commission because of all the experiences I've had with salespeople before you. I'm not looking at you, Allan. I'm looking at the 30 people that have tried to sell me extended warranties before you. Right? So we've got to be really careful there. Yes, you have to believe, but you can't overdo it and be overly excited about it either.

Allan: you've been very generous with your time, Josh. I kind of want to finish with kind of getting really practical from a cold outreach perspective, because feel like this is something that is just so badly done. And what's your approach there? So let's say someone has, no list, no contacts, no previous kind of experience or whatever else.

You've got a LinkedIn account and an email. Where do they start from a cold approach? How would you advise someone to do that?

Josh: Get off LinkedIn. Get off email, get off tech, five customers that bought within the [00:45:00] last 45 days using something called the jobs to be done interview framework. That is the only way that I know to get the language as to why the customer bought your marketing team can't make it up.

It's got to come from the mouth of your customers. Good cold outreach copy, whether it's cold calls or cold emails or LinkedIn, isn't written, it's found. And the only way that I know to get it is to do these interviews. And you're gonna start to hear things that you're not gonna be able to make up. Like I'll give you an example, mind.

A while back I was training for my first Ironman, and I'm pretty, you know, social, so I was posting this on TikTok and LinkedIn. Some triathlon coach, in my area, and my number's on my website, gets a hold of this thing, sees my training schedule, he calls me up, this is exactly what he said, Josh, it looks like you're training for your first full Ironman, so you're probably doing about 20 hours of training a week, you're eating every Snickers bar in the house, you're eating dinner at 4 o'clock, you're going to sleep at 6pm on a Saturday.

I call that divorce by [00:46:00] triathlon. Now, I crack up. I go, dude, you gotta stop for a second. I go, where did you get that from? He goes, oh, that's what they say in the groups, like when I interview my customers. Like, while they hire me, I go, you got me. Like, nailed it. You're marketing, that's how they, now, even though I don't eat Snickers bars, I was eating some other kind of candy bar, like, you, you talked about this at the beginning, Allan, joining the conversation happening in their mind.

You gotta interview them, but not, why did you buy? People won't be able to tell you. The jobs to be done interview technique is the only technique that I know that actually gets at these crispy, real reasons why people bought. And they're always fascinating. You're gonna hear like four or five themes and then you simply take that and you plug it into some frameworks which we can get into, you know, or, you know, they're online, and you can sort of plug that into cold outreach frameworks, meaning DMs, LinkedIns.

In terms of the list. You want to create look alike audiences. What do I mean by that? Take your 15 or 20 best customers, people that have been with you the longest, that are getting [00:47:00] the most value out of it, that have the highest lifetime value, and find companies similar to them. There's a tech out there called Oceans that'll help you do this, you can do it on LinkedIn, but you want to find similar triathletes that are in their fifties with families that are training for their first Ironman.

Not people that are 20 years old, but That are doing sprints that have no kids and no family because that message isn't going to resonate with those people So find the you know, the look alike audiences a lot of people don't do that, and I don't know why Because if those people are getting a lot of value from it Other people like them probably will too

Allan: We do a very similar thing from a marketing messaging perspective. So we will obviously interview their best clients. We call those verbatims, you know, so those little lines and little words and little phrases that your customers and prospects use that you don't. And often a great places to look for those are in Google reviews that, or reviews that people have [00:48:00] left you.

in your help desk. So common questions, common problems that people are having or whatever. And definitely in one on one interviews with clients. So, I love that. Josh, you've been incredibly generous with your time and with your knowledge. Thank you so much. Where can people find you? What should people, how should people connect with you?

Perfect. Got a free sales book on there under the shop section people like to consume that and then on LinkedIn Josh Braun And on TikTok, Joshua Braun, if you want to see me and people dancing. Of course, nothing wrong with that.

And we'll link to all of those. Thank you so much, Josh.

Josh: Alright, Allan.

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